As a career marketer, Lindsay Tjepkema was used to trying a lot of different strategies and seeing what works. She started to see one type of marketing consistently paying off, however — particularly for B2B brands. That's how she came up with the idea for Casted, a B2B podcast platform that makes it easy technically and in tiers of content for enterprise companies to create their own podcasts to reach their clients and potential customers.
As a career marketer, Lindsay Tjepkema was used to trying a lot of different strategies and seeing what works. She started to see one type of marketing consistently paying off, however — particularly for B2B brands. That's how she came up with the idea for Casted, a B2B podcast platform that makes it easy technically and in tiers of content for enterprise companies to create their own podcasts to reach their clients and potential customers.
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Darrell Etherington 0:00
Hi and welcome to found I'm Darrell Etherington, and I'm here with my main character, Jordan crook. She's the main character in my story.
Jordan Crook 0:11
That is quite the privilege. You are not the main character of my story, but you were definitely like, a foil. Maybe. Okay, you're not the antagonist like, the right. That's not right. Or two peas in a pod. You can't be the antagonists of my story. So,
Darrell Etherington 0:25
all right, yeah, I was like, oh, it turns the mainecare I'm a supporting character. I thought that was very nice. And maybe Yeah,
Jordan Crook 0:30
supporting maybe like an opposite like, the leading man. There you go.
Darrell Etherington 0:34
All right. I mean, I'll settle for that. I guess. Just, it's almost as nice as my thing.
Jordan Crook 0:38
Not quite what you want me to say.
Darrell Etherington 0:42
Anyways, we are here hosting found, which is techcrunch's podcast all about entrepreneurs, about startup founders, the people doing the work of building new companies that never existed before, which is really cool. When you think about it. Every week, we talk to a different one. We hear all about their experiences. We never know what we're gonna get when we speak to these founders. And their stories truly are very surprising, very inspiring, and we're thrilled to bring you another episode. This week's guest is Lindsey Tjepkema, She is the founder of casting, which appropriately enough is a podcasting startup. So their focus is specifically on creating podcasting tools for enterprise customers who are doing b2b Marketing Podcast. It's one of those ideas where I'm like, I wish I had that idea, because it's so close to things that I actually enjoy doing. Except there's money involved. All my ideas are the same, except then there's no money involved in them.
Jordan Crook 1:41
But monetization is not our skill set yet.
Darrell Etherington 1:44
No, no. But Jordan, what did you think about our conversation with Lindsay?
Jordan Crook 1:48
I thought, Lindsay, it was an interesting because you talked about how different all of our guests are. And Lindsay was no exception to that Lindsay clearly does come from marketing background, and you could like feel that. But like when I say that, it almost gives the idea that she lacks authenticity, I actually think it was the exact opposite. And then I love when traditionally consumer like scale based products find their way into the enterprise, right? Like there's something about that that is just really exciting.
Darrell Etherington 2:16
Yeah. And I think Lindsay's story is another one of those ones, where it's kind of like an archetypical founder story where she was spending all her time in her previous professional life, kind of like doing this thing and seeing this thing be really popular. And then realizing like, well, what if we took this and made it able to scale and able to be profitable at scale. So it's very cool that she was kind of living and breathing this stuff. And now she's doing it as her main focus. And she is polished right? One of our guests who I think is the most polished
Jordan Crook 2:47
if you're like one of those podcast listeners that loves the sweet, sweet sound of a voice coming through a sick ass microphone, you're gonna enjoy this one. It's good high quality. I'm the lowest quality on this episode. Sadly,
Darrell Etherington 2:59
yeah, this is definitely the closest our podcast gets to being an ASMR. Show. So we hope you enjoy.
Lindsey, welcome to found great to have you here.
Lindsay Tjepkema 3:15
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.
Darrell Etherington 3:17
One of the reasons that I reached out to you one was that we got recommendation from a colleague of ours here at TechCrunch. But another was you know what, once she sent it over, I was like, oh, podcast platform. Well, we got to have that because it's so meta. So good job starting a podcast related start.
Jordan Crook 3:34
Just for us,
Lindsay Tjepkema 3:35
I did everything is coming to fruition. So thank you.
Darrell Etherington 3:39
So pressing that you knew the show that didn't exist, like two, three weeks ago was gonna exist.
Lindsay Tjepkema 3:44
I was just really, really putting a lot of eggs in one basket. So I'm really glad it worked out.
Darrell Etherington 3:51
But actually, can you give us the elevator pitch on Cassatt, which I mean, honestly, yeah, I was, I saw the idea. I was like, this is a great idea, but I'll let you explain. Yeah,
Lindsay Tjepkema 4:00
sure. So elevator pitch is sweetened condensed as possible. We make it possible for marketing teams, specifically, you know, mid market, enterprise marketing teams harness the power of audio and video content as the center of their marketing strategy, and really, their sales and marketing strategy. So great conversations like these are harnessed by marketing teams, because it turned back out to their audiences because it's the kind of content that audiences want. And then also in through casting, we help you bring it out and amplify that content across other channels. You know, use it on your blog posts, and enable your sales team with it get on to a new social media. So from one conversation, you know, many, many points that you can distribute out to your audience and get more value everything and then measure how it's all actually impacting the brand, you know, as far as revenue and pipeline and overall business growth.
Darrell Etherington 4:47
Nice. Yeah, so I know Jordan likes to tease me with this. I have like a very limited amount of experience in the marketing world. But when asked for advice, I typically say like, make sure that you're capturing your customers conversations. And like providing them to people like when they are positive, right? It's like the number one thing that I think is actually effective. And maybe I'm biased because I'm already in the content business. But like, it just seems like such a no brainer when I was at Shopify, like that was most of our blog was just like customer stories. Right? So what's your background? What brought you to this idea?
Lindsay Tjepkema 5:19
Yeah, so my backgrounds in marketing, 15 years and b2b marketing agency side, corporate side, small business, large global business, mostly in content and brand building. And during that time, I also kind of grew up in my career, in the time of content marketing, you know, it was kind of a new thing, when I got started in the early 2000s. And I saw it, like, make a whole lot of sense, changed a whole lot of businesses, and then kind of become antiquated. And now, so many marketing strategies, content marketing strategies are built around keywords and search engine optimization, instead of how can we really engaged people. So it's serving algorithms over audiences. And that's so messed up. And it also is taking, you know, relatively Junior early in their career as content marketers, who might be brilliant content marketers, and saying, hey, go, go be a ghost writer, on behalf of the subject matter experts, but also use lots of keywords. And also, let's make sure we do it really like tons and tons at a high velocity, so that we can outrank the competition. And then in our margin, then we'll also create the content that our audiences really want, like what we're doing right now. And so that's backwards, it's broken, and it's not efficient and effective. And so throughout the years, I said, What if What if we change that what if we started at a different place, started with conversation started with those conversations with customers, partners, and industry experts, and just people that our audience would want to hear from, capture that that conversation as audio and video content, use that as a center point, start there, turn it into the content that your audience wants, bring it out across other channels, so that you're you're fueling all areas of your strategy? And started doing that in my past life right before starting costed? and realized, wow, this is very manual. There's, there's no, there's no software that does this, like this is this is putting a lot of not a burden on our team to do it all manually. And as the marketing leader, there's no way to measure it, right? I no way to say, okay, we're doing this thing. We're harnessing the power of conversations, it seems like it's working really well. But I don't know what it's doing for the business. And so we set out to change that and say, What if we made that platform that helps teams approach content marketing in a different way, make your teams more effective, the content more engaging, and the whole process just a whole lot more impactful for the business?
Darrell Etherington 7:30
Jordan? Did you notice that that was like, it was like, Lindsay was just describing the media.
Jordan Crook 7:36
Like that also, this podcast, like
Darrell Etherington 7:41
he spent a lot of time you know, trying to optimize for machines as well, right in the media business. And I think we've gone through these various, any target different things, depending on what the fashion is at the moment, right? And video is the big one and Facebook, then you get back to this point of this, like, I mean, it's kind of a core truth. But like, Well, remember, we ultimately have to serve people or else yeah, no one really gets any benefit out of this. Right. So it's nice that there's parallel there. But I mean, when you were doing this, and you were bringing this to companies, you were at like before you were starting your own thing, like what was kind of the response there from other Marketing Leaders?
Lindsay Tjepkema 8:16
Yeah, I mean, always good. Because when I mean, pre podcasting, and video content, right, so earliest days, when I was an agency, the more you can humanize a brand, the better. Right? And to your point, that sounds like media world, too. I mean, how long has everybody been saying the most effective brands like the brands of tomorrow, and the most successful brands are media companies, right? The ones that think about their audience? And how can we engage our audience and inform our audience and entertain our audience with really, really great content, and the ante just keeps getting higher and higher? But I think, to me, when I was putting together content strategies, it's that frame of mind, it's how can we create really engaging content? And, you know, to your point that that's kind of changed over time, as far as what format that is? And what's the length of that content? And is it is it written? Is it you know, do we actually put together an online magazine? Yeah, it's taken on different forums. But most recently, when it was audio and video content, right before starting acid, and went really well, I mean, we had this global team, I was at a global enterprise. And we had people around the world that were like, this is great. Like, I feel more connected to the company like internal culture, I have something that I can take to a customer and say, Hey, this is an example of another customer talking about, you know, it's not a direct case study, but I can say this is our customer, they achieved these results. And the underlying thing is that it was all with, you know, working with this company, like if I have a use case that I can use, it grew the audience size, it grew our traffic. But I again, I had no way to really measure it and really definitive ways. But yeah, I think anytime you can say we're going to humanize the brand, we're going to find great results. It's usually pretty well received.
Jordan Crook 9:51
That's something I think about like we're seeing this too with like clubhouse and stuff like that, where there's something about audio that transcends to Because I actually believe like, you shouldn't ever watch the news or listen to the news on a radio without having read it first, right? Because like there's a real specificity with the words and the way they're chosen and the order that they're in when it's written. Yeah. Whereas when you're talking like you can get ahead at your mouth can beat your brain sometimes, right? But the flip side, and the benefit to that is that, like you said, like, you not only become more human, right, by hearing, like actual conversations, you essentially eliminate buzzwords, except for those that are like highly media trained, or they're hitting, hitting their keywords or whatever. And it almost feels more honest and intimate. So you're like, I'm listening to your actual voice, I'm hearing your personality, like the cadence with which you speak and your intonations, right, like, gives me this picture in my mind of this real human being and not like, you know, impact driven purpose driven, you know, buzzword both? And that makes a huge difference.
Lindsay Tjepkema 10:53
It's true. I mean, yeah, just like the right now people are listening in on our conversation, and that makes them feel good on things. You know, it is it's much more
Jordan Crook 11:00
connective. There's a difference between that and the news article of outcasts, which was also good and informative and teach us things. But there's a huge difference between those two items, you know, it's true.
Darrell Etherington 11:11
The worst part, the equivalent media is a press release, right? And then the canned quote in the press release, where you're like, no one ever even said that, like, it only exists in writing, right? We all accept that, like, yeah, someone said it right. But it was never. He was crafted and then put in there in most cases. So on the corporate side there, there's an equivalent, right, like, whenever you get internal corporate comms, you're like, Well, I think this is, you know, assurance from a CEO. But it's actually like her internal publicists team is like produced this for the purposes of internal comms. And it's very massaged, and it doesn't leave me feeling connected at all right? Yeah. But the podcast does, right?
Lindsay Tjepkema 11:47
It's true. And we our sweet spot really isn't, you know, you think content marketing, you think a podcast that goes along with that. But internal podcasts are growing, especially over this last year, where, regardless of whether you know how large your team is, or whether you're all, you know, within a five mile radius of each other, or if you're truly distributed around the world, people want to hear from people, they want to see people. And so yeah, I could write a newsletter to my team. But it'd be a lot more effective to record a podcast, I actually do that for our board. I do an internal podcast before each of our board meetings, where they actually hear me and anybody else on my team who might be in on the meeting, talking about like, what I'm really excited about what I want to make sure we talked about in the meeting some of our numbers, and it goes along with a pre read, and then they've kind of they've literally heard from me, before we jump in, and you'd have to ask them, but I feel like as a result, we're a lot more connected. And aren't we we're building relationships, even when we're not together in real time.
Darrell Etherington 12:39
I feel like that's a great way to to handle like board governance, because if you're distributing a bunch of materials, like who knows, right, like somebody might read them might not the most of the time, hopefully, if they're good governors like they are, but you might have a director show up and be like, I didn't read it. Right. And then now I'm just coming fresh, but you're much more likely, I think, to re engage with a podcast, especially if you're like, well, I liked this founder, like, that's why I invested in them. Or,
Jordan Crook 13:05
I mean, or I read it, and I like picked out this singular number or item that I care so much about randomly because I feel like this is this thing I can pick at for an hour and a half. When in reality, if they listen to the podcast, then really Lindsay's like, Oh, hey, guys, here's a few things that we should think about. Right? And like,
Lindsay Tjepkema 13:23
here's some things I want you to focus on. They're like, Oh, that's
Jordan Crook 13:26
this little seed that's growing in my in my head right now I want to focus on that instead.
Darrell Etherington 13:32
So you're saying it's better for manipulating.
Jordan Crook 13:41
Mind Control, but I love it. I'm so into it.
Lindsay Tjepkema 13:44
This is your boy, you're listening. That is not the attention of the cast and bad cast. Thank
Jordan Crook 13:50
you cafe concluded.
Darrell Etherington 13:52
We're gonna turtle like Jordan podcast now. TechCrunch for management.
Lindsay Tjepkema 13:59
That should be the opener. Just take that and use that as a can opener. Just use that clip as the candle but it feels a little manipulative.
Darrell Etherington 14:08
So you mentioned like, you know, you were doing this at agencies, and you were seeing good results. But you also notice a lack of technology, right? So there's like, those are clear motivators from just the opportunity perspective. But what about like, personal motivators? Like why did you even want to build a startup to begin with?
Lindsay Tjepkema 14:21
Yeah, so from seeing an opportunity, and kind of the entrepreneur side, there was just such a need, I just couldn't believe like that what I needed didn't exist. So there was that. And I think that's kind of the seed for a lot of companies. So I set out to be the change I wanted to see. For me, personally, when I started to say, am I really, you know, having conversations with my husband? I have three kids, it was like, Am I really gonna leave this career in marketing in 15 years, I have a master's degree in marketing, like I'm a marketing nerd people. Am I going to leave that to go figure out if I can be a CEO and first time founder and what's that going to be like? There were times I'm like, heck yeah, I am. Then there are other times that were like,
Jordan Crook 14:58
I don't know. Really?
Lindsay Tjepkema 15:00
But don't want to do that. But what it came down to, I think somebody asked me was like, but what if you don't like, what if somebody else goes and starts this company? That's not you. And I was like, oh, that would crush me for so many reasons. Like, I just couldn't imagine not doing it, that and also a third point, I realized along the way, the thing I love more than anything else, I had a coach that I work with. And she's also like a dear friend of mine. And we were talking about what I really wanted to do. And she's like, if you won the lottery, I know that you would just go sit on a beach, like, what would you do? And through lots of exploration there, I was, like I regardless of what it is, I would create something my deepest passion is creating something that doesn't already exist, right? And so when she helped me see that that's what this would be doing. You're creating, yes, you're creating a product, yes, you're fulfilling an opportunity that exists. But like, you're also creating a team that doesn't exist yet. You're creating a workplace that doesn't exist yet a brand that doesn't exist yet. And I was like, Oh, yes. Okay, this is what I have to do. And again, I just couldn't imagine not doing it.
Darrell Etherington 16:04
That's a motivation that I think is often overlooked. I don't hear mentioned that much. And I'm glad he brought it up, like you have the opportunity. Even if the thing doesn't work, right. Let's say like, worst case scenario, maybe doesn't work. Maybe you just go get a seed and like a series A and then it's Potter's out or something like that, right? You have the opportunity to set up a workplace to hire and work with a bunch of people who otherwise wouldn't work in that field, and that
Lindsay Tjepkema 16:30
you owe each other probably know each other.
Darrell Etherington 16:32
Yeah, you just created so much opportunity, you create economic benefit, like, you know, at the very worst, you're just unlocking some money from wealthy people who are sitting on it doing nothing anyway, right. So it's, that's a really good motivation, and just not one that comes up very
Jordan Crook 16:48
well. And you're like testing your own, like creative skills as well, like across all different verticals, right. Like you said, that you're a marketing geek. And I'm sure that like, stuff like brand building, right is something that would really excite you, because you're like, Oh, I have all of these tools, right? Yeah. But then there's this whole other thing that's like, you know, you've led teams and stuff, but like, you know, hiring a bunch of people or creating like a workplace culture, some of the stuff that like, is way outside your wheelhouse, you're like, Okay, I get to flex all these different kind of muscles to 100%.
Lindsay Tjepkema 17:16
I mean, I'm, I love learning, I think, when you jump into founder seat, that's what it's all about constant learning, constant learning, because no one's ever done this before. No one's ever been the founder of casting before, like in tomorrow is is a new experience, and no one's ever had before. And so it's constant learning and being outside your comfort zone all the time. Which again, when you're when you're really in touch with your why, and like, I know that, Okay, once upon a time, I realized that I've really, really, really loved building something doesn't exist before. That requires stepping outside your comfort zone that requires a lot of learning. That makes it all even in the really hard times when you're raising capital or things are tough. You're in a pandemic. Having that why and remembering your why's super important.
Darrell Etherington 18:01
Another thing he mentioned there, he also brought up something that me and Jordan regularly talk about on the show, which is how, how else do we do our we just lack any kind of like appetite for risk. But I mean, that's the part where did you always have that? Like, did you always have this kind of entrepreneurial spirit, even before you were an entrepreneur? Or was that a product of having identified this opportunity?
Lindsay Tjepkema 18:28
Well, it's funny, because I have people have asked me, especially you know, as founder, so we've always been really about risk. I'm like, Well, I'm not jumping out of planes. So I've never thought of myself as a very risky person. But, you know, I started my own company before where I was just, I was doing consulting, so it's not venture backed, I was building a team, but like, I did that. And so yeah, I think it's always been there. But I think until you actually jump out and do something like that, you're like, oh, there it is. I guess it's always been there. Until the right opportunity comes along. I also have three kids. One, my oldest was not quite two and a half, I had twins. And so and they're all boys, and so it's like I can do that. I can start I can surely do anything. And so I think I think just kind of betting on yourself and being confident that you're gonna see it through and surround yourself with people who can help. That makes risks seem a whole lot less risky.
Jordan Crook 19:19
Right? Did you have a moment like after you taking the initial risk, right, because there's always like a no turning back point. buyer's remorse? Yeah, did you did you What did you have like a moment where you're like, oh, what do I got myself into? And like, why did you have it and how did you get out of it?
Lindsay Tjepkema 19:35
So not after I jumped out of the plane, so to speak, I think I had a lot of apprehension going down this path of this metaphor, like I'm getting on the plane, putting on a parachute, looking outside, you know, looking down to the ground that was just getting further and further away. Again, just because I had I had spent so I spent 15 years building a career in marketing to be a marketing leader and to lead a marketing team and you know, now Next Steps is, you know, further into larger companies and cmo someday like that was the path. And yeah, so there were times where I was like course Of course this makes sense. This doesn't make no one else in this role makes any any more sense than me. And then there are other times were like, why would I do this? Why would I? What am I doing? But I think once I once I jumped and started building and you know, started thinking about brands started thinking about the opportunity started mapping out the people start talking to people, that's the first thing I spent the first few weeks doing is talking to people because I had lived and I was our, you know, ideal customer, right? But I wanted to go talk to others. And so starting to talk about it and be like, Hey, have you had this problem? You know, b2b podcasts? Here's the challenge. Yes, no, why Why not? What would you like to see if you had a magic wand and like starting to have those conversations and getting the feedback of like, oh, man, if you build this, that's awesome. Or like, Oh, my gosh, this is such a neat, I'm so glad you're doing this that. Of course, we were learning of course, we were taking things that turned into messaging and our MVP of the product, but it was also really validating of like, this is something that needs to happen, which really, really helps with that a buyer's remorse. So yeah, I think I think once I jumped, I can honestly say, I haven't, haven't looked back.
Darrell Etherington 21:09
Honestly, I just really think this is a great idea. Maybe it's because I love podcasting. But I don't always say that. And Jordan knows that. I don't always think that the companies we cover are great ideas.
Lindsay Tjepkema 21:21
Thank you. I mean, I'm biased. But I agree. Yeah,
Darrell Etherington 21:24
there are thresholds to pass through. That's why I'm a journalist, and not a successful investor. Also, most of the ideas in like, these are bad.
Jordan Crook 21:32
That's why as a journalist, I cover other things in the business more so than which startups are gonna win or lose, cuz I think everything's cool on
Unknown Speaker 21:42
both ends of the spectrum.
Darrell Etherington 21:43
Yes, yeah, exactly. If you're listening to found you're probably already super interested in startups, and the overall startup ecosystem, so we've got a great deal for you, we're going to offer you 50% off either a one year or a two year subscription to extra crunch. extra crunch is techcrunch's premium product offering. And when you go there, you'll get deep dive interviews with some of the top founders in the industry, who get market maps on specific vertical goals, then some of the most exciting areas of growth and startup land. You'll also get surveys of some of the top VCs in different areas, including different geographies. So you can subscribe to extra crunch at extra crunch calm, that's probably the easiest way. Or if you're already on TechCrunch, follow the links for extra crunch. And you'll get a prompt to subscribe and then just enter that code that's found the name of this podcast during checkout and you'll get 50% off on either a one year or a two year subscription. When you started going to do the fundraising, tell us about that. And was that like, did your confidence get shake shaken at any time doing that? Or were you sort of exuding the confidence so much that the VCs were just like, take our money?
Lindsay Tjepkema 22:56
I wish? Yes, that's exactly what happened. They just they just wrote me a blank check.
Unknown Speaker 23:01
Answers 100.
Lindsay Tjepkema 23:08
Yeah, I mean, okay, so. So we raised a seed round, closed it January 2020. Who knew that that would have been turned out to be exceptional timing, right? Yeah, that was luck. Honestly. I mean, just who? And then close our series, a march announced it, April 6, so it didn't shake my confidence. I don't know about that. Was it hard? Yeah. But I have just been so passionate, and so excited about what we're building. And it helps that we have two incredible co founders, and the team is just brilliant. And they're doing amazing things. And we've had really great traction and early momentum. it's ever been questioning, like, was this the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? Are we doing the right thing? I believe that all along? What fundraising does do, it's frustrating. And it's stressful. And I think for me, because I have believed it. And it believed in us and believed in what we're building. I believed in the opportunity so much that it's like, Why Why couldn't that person See it? Like, or what was it me that I couldn't, I couldn't make them see it. They couldn't feel it. They couldn't see what I see. They couldn't feel it. I feel I couldn't find the numbers, the data to accurately represent this vision, especially, you know, seed rounds. Like, I just want them to get in my head and experience what I've experienced and have the conversations I've had to know that what we're doing is huge. And so yeah, I think not so much confident shaking more definitely stressful and frustrating when people don't see what you see. But then when you find that you find the one or two or whoever whatever that do. That's pretty cool.
Darrell Etherington 24:42
What was the ratio? I guess when you're doing that? And how did you sort of keep up your spirit when you're encountering all these knows?
Lindsay Tjepkema 24:49
Oh, man, um, probably for both rounds. I feel like the seed round was more conversations more knows more ghosting, that's partially maybe what happens at seed round. Partially maybe Me Me, I just first time I've ever done that before. So I didn't I didn't know that when somebody said, You know what, whatever canned feedback it was that they they weren't ghosting me like, like, we love you. This is so great. We'll talk to you next week like, you'll never see it. I learned in series A like, oh, they're they're done. They're no mercy Ron, it was like that they said that they liked me, they said, they said good. They said they really liked the pitch. But I think as far as ratio, cash, I don't know, lots, lots of lots and lots and lots and lots of conversations, some turned into a very, very, very precise numbers, I'm giving you lots of conversation, some turned into next steps, have those, you know, a few of those turned into, like third steps and, and, you know, the further along you get, the more you build relationships, I think is key. And then you know, people tend to actually reach out and give you really good feedback. I don't know I've never speak it's just it seemed like, that's literally all I was doing for a few weeks.
Jordan Crook 25:59
What have you learned from it? Right? Like, you know, all goes well with this a right? You build the features and scale the way that you want to and you gear up and probably 12 to 15 months to go and raise the beat. What do you change? Right about like, what did you learn from the last two times to say like, this is how I'm going to go about this process, this time to try and alleviate some of that frustration or to try to, you know, yeah, make it more efficient, or whatever. One thing
Lindsay Tjepkema 26:28
that I've learned is that and you hear it all the time is that there's so so many things across the board change from from round to round as far as what investors are looking for. And one thing that worked really well for us was just starting starting with the end in mind working backwards, right? What What do we need to be true? What do I need to be true about the business? Before I even start thinking about the next round? I think that's even more the case be you know, because you have you have that much more time you have that much more mileage, you have that much more time to say, okay, we proved some repeatability, we proved some predictability, we proved patterns and processes. And we brought on some incredible leaders, and this is what we've done. And therefore, this is why you can rely on us to say this is where we're going. Whereas, you know, seed round is casting a vision. A is saying, Look at how how well we did with what little we had, and you can buy into it. But I think, for me casting an even wider net next time around, I think that only does good things. I think sometimes you hear, you know, only talk to a few people or make sure you really narrow down the list. But I think one thing that I found to be true is more conversations, the better. Of course, there's a ratio, you can't fully pull yourself out of the business as a founder, like you've got to stay really focused. But when you're really, really passionate, and you're really, really authentic, and you really believe in what you're doing, the more conversations you have, even if it's like, hey, this isn't a fit for me. I've had people investors, introduce me to other people or to potential customers along the way. And so I think the more conversations, the better, you always need to start earlier than you think you're going to because it's always going to take longer than you think it's going to
Jordan Crook 27:56
do. Now this is probably even more conversations as we're talking right? Like you are screaming like missionary CEO to me, right, like you, obviously are incredibly passionate, you come from a marketing background. So I think there's a lot of like, just positive, obviously, there's a lot of strategy and numbers involved in in marketing. But there's also it's all wrapped in positivity. So much, right? Very, like cheerleader mentality. And so I'm wondering, like, we talked about it earlier, as a CEO, you have to wear many hats, right? And you have to like be a lot of different people at different times with different stakeholders. What What do you feel like you have to work on the most as like being a CEO? Like what is the thing where you're like, Ah, you're always learning, but like, what piece of yourself? Are you kind of like, growing and evolving?
Lindsay Tjepkema 28:42
Yeah, the most consistent thing that I'm working on, is staying ahead of things not being reactive, which sometimes is easier than others. I found I remember after raising the seed round, and it's absolutely been true. It's Thursday. So I'm glad that I have the frame of reference from last time around is once I close the round, and you make the announcement, it's over. It's like, Okay, wait, what do I do now? Wait, where do I last? Because no matter how much you're still in the business, like having focused so much on raising and closing the round, to like, it's done. It's very disorienting. And then it'd be a vacuum where that was
Darrell Etherington 29:17
right.
Lindsay Tjepkema 29:18
Yeah. And so that thing that I'm working on to answer your, your question is really, really being intentional about communication. And, you know, I, marketer thing about the different audiences. So there's the team, there's the board, there's our investors, there's potential investors, there's of course the market, and how am I not just reacting and just being like, I got any I could literally just spend all day so I'm sure many of us could, just responding to emails. Yeah. But like, how am I getting ahead of things and really trying to stay there
Darrell Etherington 29:48
when you're talking about that, like that's the big challenge for me is acknowledging that some of these things just aren't going to get done and I'm happy to be removed from the plate, right. And I Like how do you make those choices in a CEO role at like a fast growth company? Right? Because it would seem like there's so many potential landmines when you start dropping stuff,
Lindsay Tjepkema 30:08
for sure. And I think I cannot overemphasize the value of the team, right? And co founders, right. So if you have the choice to go it alone, or get co founders, get co founders, it's, it's difficult, I think, if you really, really have to be careful about who you bring on, because in many ways, you're using like a marriage analogy, but it's true. I mean, you're linking yourself to these people, for a long time better, or worse. ups and downs, really tough conversations. And you know, these are the people that when you're racing around, continue to run the business, and that are really helping helping you to be intentional about culture. And so to your point, how do you how do you prioritize, you work with a team and you, you, you try to get understanding about what their priorities are and what the business's priorities are, and get feedback about how things are going and block out the time to make sure that the role that you are uniquely positioned to play, you have the ability to be intentional about it.
Jordan Crook 31:02
Can we talk about co founders? I mean, first of all, I have to note that this may be the seventh episode in a row where we've used the marriage analogy. And I completely agree.
Darrell Etherington 31:11
Yeah, either with co founders or investors, it comes up,
Jordan Crook 31:14
both equally buying, there's
Lindsay Tjepkema 31:16
a lot more paperwork financially than there was with my marriage.
Jordan Crook 31:22
But I want to talk about co founders because, you know, I've heard almost every entrepreneur would say, yes, it's better with a co founder. It's better with like a partner to kind of share the load. But we've also seen historically, so many founder disputes. And the funny thing is, like of the ones we've seen, there are dozens that we don't see or hear about right where things fizzle and implode six months in or whatever. And I guess I'm curious, like, how do you balance things? Like for example, I assume, as a marketer, and as the CEO, you're the face of a lot of stuff, right? And maybe they don't get as much credit, even though they're co founders and like, and that's just one of what could be a billion things to go wrong. When two people are so tied together, and their lives are so wrapped up together, a billion things go wrong. So I am just curious, like, how how do you navigate something like that? How do you make sure you're in sync, but you're not overbearing? How do you make sure that you're working together? Well, and everyone's happy?
Lindsay Tjepkema 32:17
Yeah. Oh, man, I feel like they need to be on the last call. Are there?
Darrell Etherington 32:22
No, this is the beauty. Literally just
Jordan Crook 32:25
gonna listen to what your answer is. It's high pressure.
Lindsay Tjepkema 32:29
How to respond here. I think, you know, for us early on to Adam and Zachary. Adam has a prototype business, Zachary heads up the revenue side business, and I have have lived the lives of our audience, right. So I'm the domain expert, and Zachary, I've been friends for a very long time since like, middle school or something. And so and we kind of worked together before at the same company, but not I didn't really didn't really know each other. And so the way this came to be is I kind of put feelers out there and said, Hey, I'm doing this thing, if anybody knows anybody, I need somebody to come in and help you build the thing. Long story short, we ended up coming in on this thing together, of course. And one of the things that was really important to me was finding somebody that not just could could do what I needed them to do, but really, really shared the vision for the company and building something that didn't exist culture, team workplace. And so they were from square one, super super aligned, it's our priorities around, like, why we're doing this, where we're so aligned. And so I think that's, that's super important from day one, because then you can have those conversations about why we're doing what we're doing. And then, you know, specifically get into roles like you're your role is to do this, your role is to do this and my role. And this is not the case for every CEO, but a big part of my job is going out there and being speaking on behalf of the company and casting the vision and, and raising awareness of what we're doing, especially now. And then as we grow, I hope that everybody that's listening will will hear more of us more from us, and more from more of us more people that are on the team. And and that's you know, you'll see different parts of our expertise shine that way. But I think the most important thing, not unlike a marriage is being able to have tough conversations and say, This is what I'm here to do. That's what you're here to do. Let's make sure we're giving each other feedback. Are we are we living out our values? Are we living out our culture? If not, how are we better? How can I be better, but really respecting what each one of us can do and the value that we play and where we can each make the greatest impact on the business and letting each other go and be autonomous in that way and supporting each other. I mean, look, when I was out raising money, they were really carrying the torch and a lot of ways and making sure that things were running and that I was getting brought in when I needed to and that I was kept up to speed. It's just I think it all comes back to his relationships and making sure that the relationship is super super strong because if it's not your right there are going to be you know, this person is getting more, you know, speaking opportunities and this person is you know, getting more attention from the board and you have to come back to a really Really strong relationship where you can have the tough conversations and know know that you're all in it for the greater good of the business in the team.
Darrell Etherington 35:07
I think the big thing that you brought up there was this conversations like it came up to in a recent conversation that at our early stage event that I was having about the board governance, what they were talking about, like, make sure you set regular touch points. So you're talking about things like get them out in the open, and don't let it happen. Kind of like ad hoc, like make sure that there are regular touch points where these things happen. Because what I've seen, I always bring up these things that are going to get me in trouble. But even very large, successful companies, there can be a lot of like, weird hidden resentment between senior executives, about what exactly what Jordan was talking about, like who gets to be the face of the company, who's speaking on the company's behalf, and you know, who's perceived as the leader or whatever. So, if you're not discussing those and being intentional about them, they're gonna show up. Yeah, in different ways, right? So
Jordan Crook 36:00
it's your way of telling me something, Darrell,
Darrell Etherington 36:02
it's telling me that Jordan, just like, ignores my desire to be more, no, come on.
Jordan Crook 36:10
We're the odd cup,
Darrell Etherington 36:11
we actually have a great we have a great working relationship manager, a German logistics Laxmi, hey, do these things and I go, Okay, and then I do them. And I don't ask for any publicity.
Jordan Crook 36:22
I shower him with praise, because that's a rare situation, actually.
Lindsay Tjepkema 36:29
I think it's really important. The flipside of all that, like, you know, conversations and making sure everyone knows what role they play, and tough, tough conversations, it's also really, really, really important to lift each other up. And this is not about me, this is it's not even about the three of us as founders, it's about our entire team. And when you have people that are very, very cognizant of that, and very conscious of that, anytime you do have the opportunity to talk about it, that's super important, too. Because it, you know, it's, it is not a bad, we wouldn't be where we are without the incredible, incredible team, that that we had, I wouldn't be a founder, I might be an entrepreneur, but I wouldn't be a successful one. If it weren't for, you know, the founders that came alongside me and the team that that's come on board to,
Jordan Crook 37:13
I'm creating a culture to where like you can be the one who received is on the receiving end of a hard conversation, because I think that's hard. Like for founders, especially founders of early stage companies. It's hard for all of us. Let's be real, right? It's hard to be someone who's like talking to someone in a leadership position and say, like, Hey, here's some feedback about something you did that I didn't love or that I wish you would do differently. Yeah. And it's hard to be on the other end of that as well. Because you're like, you're almost kind of trying to project this sense of, I know what I'm doing. I'm doing what's best for the company, I'm doing what's best for you. Making mistakes almost feels like Well, can you trust me in the future? It's a hard, like balance to strike of saying is I can correct things, but you can still trust me? How have you like wind yourself up to that as well? Right? Like not just being lifted up, but like, having your co founders, the people on your team or your board, like come to you and say like, hey, let's shift this. Yeah. How do you do that? Like emotionally personally, as well?
Lindsay Tjepkema 38:09
Oh, goodness, I think, hmm. It's a good question. It's partially just who I am. And I think who we are as founders. But I think how I think how that shows up as a leader is being transparent about it. I mean, obviously, to your to your point, you can't go and say, I made this mistake, everyone just want you all to know about it. But here's, here's a good example. So we talked about going back to the office, lots people were talking about that we don't have an office right now, we haven't since you know, March, we were lucky enough to have a lease that expired June 1, and we just haven't gone back. But we're talking about it. And all I said the team is like, Look, all I can promise you literally the only promise I can make is that we will mess up, you know, is that we're going to try things. And what I asked from you in return is that you'll be flexible and provide feedback, right? So if we go and we say, we're gonna do this thing, and we're, you're going to come in on this day, and, and then this team is going to come in this day, like, we'll get feedback and people will be hurt, people will be confused, people will be frustrated. People won't agree. And all I ask is that, you know, you provide feedback, and let us know how it's going as opposed to just letting it go. And that's important. We also have a thing that I know a lot of other companies do, too, which is disagree and commit. And so you know, we have the tough conversation. We talked literally yesterday, the three of us as founders, were talking about just a situation that we had, and the two of them agreed and I was like, Look, this green committed situation, here's my thoughts. Here's where I'm going with it. Here's my concerns, but I trust you and I've aired my grievances and you won't you won't hear about again, I will disagree and I will commit and I'm not going to come back and say I told you so later on and I think that's really really important too. And I feel I think he just having again having tough conversations building relationship across the board so that people if anyone on the team does have a conflict with me or about me that even if they don't feel like they can come to me which I hope they do. They feel like they can go to their their leader and say hey, Lindsay said this and made me upset. And, and then being really public about, about feedback or a time that I messed up or something that I'm, you know, worried about, but in a way that still people feel like, okay, she's sharing this with me, but I still feel confident about where we're going. Because of what she also shared about what she's doing about it.
Darrell Etherington 40:15
Yeah, you can't just be like, I'm constantly messing up terrible. And here are all the dumb things. By the way, I'm
Jordan Crook 40:22
leaving on trust in gender Matt, right. And like intimacy that's built by saying like, Oh, yeah, I did. I am worried about this, right. But I'm thinking of a plan. And I want to know what your plan is, or whatever. Yep, that actually can build trust if it's used frequently. And I love the idea of disagreeing commit. I like, that's something I've been like dealing with. And I feel like now there's a name for it.
Darrell Etherington 40:47
Oh, it was a big Shopify value, too. And I had some funny meetings. I could tell you, there may have been times where I loudly decried disagreement don't commit.
Jordan Crook 40:59
No.
Lindsay Tjepkema 41:02
As my bet, as my best friend, Renee brown would say, and I keep saying that she's my best friend. Because one of these days, it'll come to fruition, just putting it out into the universe,
Darrell Etherington 41:10
retrospectively, it'll all be accurate.
Lindsay Tjepkema 41:12
She'll be like, Oh, I didn't realize we were friends. And I'm like, yeah,
Jordan Crook 41:15
this whole time.
Lindsay Tjepkema 41:16
We've been literally I've been talking about you. But she talked a lot about that, too. And dare to lead is I highly recommend it for everybody that we talks about a lot about that there's there's vulnerability and there's oversharing. You know, there's there's building, there's, there's authenticity and being genuine and saying, look, you know, I'm I'm worried about this, too. But But here's what we're doing about it. Here's why you can trust and where we're going, even though there's uncertainty versus like, I'm scared to. Ah, yeah, because when you feel it when people feel like there's no one driving the ship, that's scary, except for like, Look, this is we've got some turbulence ahead. But I got you, I've got this, we're gonna we're in it together. That's a very different things.
Darrell Etherington 41:59
Yeah, I think change management is like one of honestly, the most difficult things that any leader in any company has to deal with, like, you know, again, oversharing, but me and Jordan have been dealing with this as well at TechCrunch. And I've had those exact same conversations, people like, I know, this is scary, it's, it's definitely gonna be uncomfortable, because it's a change, right? And everyone's gonna feel that I feel that personally, but like, here's their idea behind the change. And here's where we want to get to. So that's why we're doing it right. And
Lindsay Tjepkema 42:27
that's important to sharing the why
Darrell Etherington 42:28
Yeah, yeah. And see, and you're still gonna encounter situations where people are like, well, I'm distrustful that change it, I'm gonna just reserve that right. But hopefully, on the whole, that's not everyone
Jordan Crook 42:40
that we hopefully, God you're giving me?
Darrell Etherington 42:45
Love it. This is great. These podcasts are great, because they're just like internal culture.
Lindsey, I did I want to ask about because you mentioned, you know, your remote, but you're also you know, based in Indianapolis to write so we obviously cover a lot of companies. And then on the whole, they tend to locate in the valley, I think, right, but I'm not in Valley and journeys down the valley. So we try to make sure that the perspective is broader, but like, How was it for you founding this technology company? And I plus and then also the fundraising process? Was that a challenge for your did you work with Valley investors? Or like, how did that go? Yes.
Lindsay Tjepkema 43:23
So see, I'm from Michigan, lived in Chicago for a few years before moving to Indianapolis. And when I moved here, it was right around the time that exact target was being acquired by Salesforce. And just tons and tons of martec talent had been grown here. And I was kind of blissfully unaware and Chicago that this was all happening. And I came here and said, Wow, this is great. This is this is awesome. So yes, Indianapolis starting a company here has been fantastic. The talent that's here, especially in Mar tech, specially in SAS is incredible. Being able to hire people that are here that are excited that have experience not only in SAS, not only in martec, but also in a startup and understand what that means. And they're they're excited to grow something that's been fantastic raising capital. I don't know what any other way. I don't know what it's like to be anywhere else. But it was it especially, you know, throughout 2020 it's been fine. I mean, it's I don't think it was any easier or harder than it would have been, except that I did it all here. I'm in my house right now. There were times that you know, my kids were also here, which made it interesting. But you know, I wasn't on a plane flying across the country for somebody was just gonna tell me no, right. It allowed me to have talked earlier about like, the key for me was as many conversations cast a wide net, I was able to cast a really wide net because people weren't, no one was expecting anyone to get on a plane. No one was expecting to meet in person that made some of the conversations much longer and more drawn out. I had I had a lot of investors Tell me like look this, we would have had a decision by now but this is just like we haven't met you and so bear with us as we figure this out. And I'll Like, oh, that's fine. Like, I will gladly have, you know, six zoom calls with you, instead of three flights out to the Bay Area. And, you know, even if it makes for a faster decision, because especially as a strapped, you know, young company, Zoom Zoom calls. So I think it's been interesting, especially for our geography, we definitely had as much interest as I think we would have had, I think we had some people I know, I had some investors that, you know, kind of forget where you're located. And they're like, remind me where you are. And it's Indianapolis, they're like, oh, and so there was, I think there was some pleasant surprise about what was spinning out of the middle of the country. But I think, especially from pandemic land, that we're all, you know, hopefully coming out of, I think that there's a lot we're seeing, we're seeing it everywhere, a lot more curiosity about what else exists and where talent has, has relocated to and, and what's possible, you know, between the coasts, and that's, that's great. And it my experience here has been fantastic.
Darrell Etherington 45:56
I've spoken to a lot of investors who have just said, the one positive thing that come out of the pandemic for them is that they are their deal. Flow is so much more efficient in terms of travel and time away from family, everything else. And also their Oculus is so much wider, like they're able to speak to companies that they otherwise never would have been introduced to, or encountered or whatever. So
Lindsay Tjepkema 46:17
I'm very thankful for sure. Yeah,
Jordan Crook 46:20
I would assume the downside for VCs is that there is so much more competition, because a founder now can take 30 meetings a day from pretty much anywhere, as opposed to having the costs associated with going to Sand Hill Road and the time spent in traffic etc. And so there's just like, so many more companies have access to these meetings, which means they can meet way, way, way more VCs, which means more VCs are competing for those deals as well. So
Darrell Etherington 46:47
which is good for founders? It is, Lindsay, it's been a pleasure having you. This is a really, really great conversation. And I have to admit, my startup idea prompted by my brother in law was you should make internal podcasts just for like team building culture building as like a service or whatever. And I was like, Oh, no, when I saw you're coming by Oh, no, they already did this. Basically, it's b2b, but could just be a feature of their platform. So just partner
Lindsay Tjepkema 47:15
up, it's great.
Darrell Etherington 47:16
Well, I was just gonna say you can have an idea for free because of my risk aversion. Yeah. And we will just start sitting back here.
Lindsay Tjepkema 47:24
The advisors also experience.
Jordan Crook 47:29
That's so funny to that. She said, What motivated her was that someone might go build it first. And then she did that to you?
Darrell Etherington 47:37
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I never would have built it. But yeah, it's been Holly. And I think, you know, is there anything that you wanted to kind of like, share for prospective kind of like people thinking about like, hey, should I do this or not? Like in the lines of either motivating or like, what should their decision criteria be? I
Jordan Crook 47:51
guess, just knock them down.
Lindsay Tjepkema 47:53
I mean, it's hard. It's, it's, it is hard. It's, it's unlike anything I've ever done before. That said I would I would do it again, in a heartbeat. Well, I would have made this choice. Again, I don't know if I'll start another company. We'll see that. But I again, I know I said it already. But the question that I tell all prospective founders to ask themselves is what if somebody else did this instead? You know, what, if somebody else pursued this idea instead, would you would you applaud and say, yeah, it's about time, like I had that idea. And I'm so glad somebody finally did it. Or would you say they went, there went my chance? Like, if you can't imagine not doing it, you can't imagine somebody else doing it? Instead, there's your answer. And that, if you ask yourself, could I do this? That opens up a whole can of worms. But if you ask yourself, could I live with not doing this? That's, that's the question.
Darrell Etherington 48:55
Isn't that great? That was just to make it sound even better with the beautiful ASMR sounds of a piece of paper rubbing against itself, which I don't know. Is that one of the ones I don't I'm not really This isn't my genre.
Jordan Crook 49:09
It's just about how you deliver it.
Darrell Etherington 49:11
The whisper talk. Yeah. So there's all this silliness is because Lindsay sounded great. It was a an achievement and auditory achievement. But it was also a really fantastic conversation. And Lindsey is one of the founders that I think started out with a clear vision and maintains that clear vision at this stage, even in the company, right. Like it seemed to be exactly what the market was looking for.
Jordan Crook 49:34
Yeah, Lindsey is definitely got something really hot with this platform. And I'm excited to see where she goes. I also just really appreciated her talking us through like how anxiety inducing it was to like really take the leap and start the company, but also that piece of her that was like I'm sure, it's hard to do both at one time and to so eloquently explain that feeling as well. And I thought that that was really cool. So I hope everybody enjoys This episode I know I did, for sure,
Darrell Etherington 50:02
man, I hope she takes my idea. And I hope she makes a lot of money that and then like out of the kindness of her heart, I guess at some point it's just like Darrell here. Here's a big check for maybe $10 million or something. I
Jordan Crook 50:14
think that would be reasonable. Ambitious as hell. You are starting to sound like a main character is what you're doing.
Darrell Etherington 50:23
Now I'm supporting cast only Jordan, you'll always be the main character in my book. Well, thanks buddy. founders hosted by myself, TechCrunch news editor Darrell Etherington and TechCrunch managing editor Jordan crook. We are produced by Yashad Kulkarny and edited by grace Mendenhall. techcrunch's audio products are managed by Henry Pickavet. Our guest this week was Lindsay Tjepkema, co founder and CEO of cast it you can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and on twitter@twitter.com slash bound. You can also email us at found a techcrunch.com Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.