This week Darrell and Becca are joined by Ourside founder and CEO Keta Burke-Williams. They get into what it takes to innovate in a historically luxury industry, the challenges of raising capital as a Balck female solo founder with a consumer startup and, most importantly, how many solid colognes Darrell travels with.
This week Darrell and Becca are joined by Ourside founder and CEO Keta Burke-Williams. They get into what it takes to innovate in a historically luxury industry, the challenges of raising capital as a Balck female solo founder with a consumer startup and, most importantly, how many solid colognes Darrell travels with.
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Darrell Etherington 0:01
Hello, and welcome to found I'm your host, Darrell Etherington, and I'm here with my co host. We all smell good. Becca, who are you telling people,
Rebecca Szkutak 0:09
I guess good tag someone who some might say smells good.
Darrell Etherington 0:13
Well, listen, we all smell good to somebody. Let's put it that way. Please remember to like, subscribe, and rate and review this. But on that note, just remember that as you're in there, saying how good we are also, just in case you forgot, this is TechCrunch. This podcast all about the stories behind the startups. And every week we talk to a different founder about their own story. And today we're talking to Keita Burke Williams, who is the founder and CEO of our side, which is a fragrance brand, hence all the fragrance talk up top. And they are aiming at making clean, vegan friendly and cruelty free scents. So without further ado, let's go ahead and talk to Keita.
Hey, Keita. How's it going?
Keta Burke-Williams 1:02
It's going well, I'm excited to be here. How are you?
Darrell Etherington 1:04
Yeah, I'm good. I'm very excited that you're here as well. So we usually start these off by giving people an idea of the company that we're talking about. So do you want to give us a little bit of background on our side?
Keta Burke-Williams 1:17
Sure. We are a luxury conscious fragrance brand. And we are a digitally native company setting out to really do something different in the $57 billion fragrance category.
Darrell Etherington 1:29
Nice. Yeah, big category, obviously. Well, you told us the size of it. Alright. I didn't realize it was that big. But I mean, I like fragrances. They're nice. So I've actually got like a little bit of a problem. I don't think Becca, you don't know this. I don't share this with our team internally. But I've got like a lot of solid colognes around because I was like, oh solid clothes. They're travel friendly. But there's other downsides. We don't have to talk about the merits or
Rebecca Szkutak 1:56
how many? Yeah, you brought it up? I'm not asking a word question here.
Darrell Etherington 2:03
Like five? Because it's hard, because you're like, most of them are online artists. Don't you don't smell it in advance, which can be tricky. Which Qaeda, you probably have to deal with? And I'm curious if you've come across that interview have any solutions for that. But maybe that's putting the cart before the horse? I'm not sure.
Keta Burke-Williams 2:20
I think it's tricky. I don't think we've solved it, we have what we call a discovery kit so that people can kind of sample at a low purchase cost and decide which fragrance is the right fit for them before they buy a full size. And then I think in our future, you know, it looks like expanding into retail because some people just want to smell something in person first. But I feel you on that you never know what you're gonna get. And maybe you like it one day and not the next day just like you know, an item of clothing. You're like those pants look better on me in the store. So I feel that
Darrell Etherington 2:49
it's highly personal. And it is like it is variable, right? Like over time and all kinds of things can affect it, I guess. But yeah. Well, how did you get into this category to begin with? Why did you want to go down this fragrant path? I guess? Yeah, this
Keta Burke-Williams 3:03
path, which I feel like is a kind of a niche and unexpected one. So that's a fair question. My background is nothing to do with fragrance except like me as a fragrance lover. So I would say for me my love of fragrance started at a young age like a lot of my memories have fragrance tied to them. I sometimes dream and I like dream a smell which I realized like not everyone does now. But for me fragrance is always the same where I could escape. So like I was a kid who never really fit in grew up as less, you know, black multicultural girl, my mom is Jamaican, like in this small, you know very white suburb of Ohio. I also figure skating so I was just off the charts like not fitting in the box and found ways to escape. So at first that was through figure skating, but through reading and then through sent. So whether it was you know, going to Bath and Bodyworks and smelling the cucumber melon lotion or whether it was burning candles on the weekend. For me scent has always been this thing where I can close my eyes breathe deep and kind of be transported somewhere else but did nothing with that went on the straight and narrow path. went to Dartmouth College studied Portuguese and religion, then went to work for Kraft Heinz big food company and then went to work for Carnival Cruise Line, another giant company before I went to business school, and it was while I was in business school that I was inspired to like, I had this inkling of an idea basically after talking with my sister, and that inkling of an idea became like, why doesn't what we want exist and could we bring it to fruition? And you know, of course that business school competence lets you think that you can start anything and so that's kind of how I got the start.
Darrell Etherington 4:35
Very cool. Yeah, I think the scent associations memory is something I definitely have. I think it's something that a lot of people can relate to. Right because you you're walking around and you smell something and it automatically puts you back to like whatever like I think specific for me is like pipe smoke which is not something you smell that much anymore, but like that immediately brings me back to like my grandfather's like sitting room. Don't worry, he had like, always had a pipe in his arm chair. And then there was also like a fire going like inside, but it's like very visceral, right? Like it like immediately pops you back there.
Rebecca Szkutak 5:09
Yeah. No, I can think of one of those for myself too. Yeah. Growing up my best friend who is so my best friend had this really great smelling hair oil. And I never really knew what it was. But I always just like, really liked the smell of it. And now sometimes if I'm like walking on the streets of New York, and someone has something similar, I'm like, Maddie is heroin, hair oil. I'm like, I can smell it. I can remember it. I can remember like, what she used to wear. And like that smell is like so strong in my brain, or something. So it was really
Darrell Etherington 5:37
cool. I mean, so when you were doing the business thing, were you kind of like, looking around for an idea. You were like, I have all these skills, I should apply them. And did you go through a number of different choices? Are you this struck you as like, I need to do this?
Keta Burke-Williams 5:48
Yeah, this struck me I was not going down the entrepreneurship route. I honestly thought it was silly that everyone comes to business school and be an entrepreneur. Yeah, no, that wasn't the plan. I got, you know, internship and management consulting and a part time internship in early stage venture capital, because I thought that that's what you're supposed to do. And it felt very awesome and trendy and cool. And I realized that I didn't love either of those things. Not that there aren't great learnings there. But I had this inkling of an idea with my sister that I was passionate about. And I got a grant from business school to start working on it. And it was a thing that I did until 2am, you know, every night after the other internships, and I realized, like, Oh, this is what I actually enjoy on the bad days, I still enjoy it. And so I decided to take that risk and keep on working on it my second year, and then after I graduated, like decided to go full time and do kind of all or nothing. So definitely wasn't part of the plan.
Darrell Etherington 6:44
Yeah, I think you keep alluding to, you know, maybe it was more challenging, or there were surprises as it was like, not necessarily glamorous experience that you imagined it would be. Can you talk a bit about that? Like, how did it match up to reality? And were you able to keep that passion for the thing? That was kind of what started you down the path to begin with?
Keta Burke-Williams 7:02
That's a great question. I don't know what I expected in terms of reality. And I think anything that we love, but also hasn't been done before is going to be tough. And maybe I didn't have quite enough of a sense of that going in. But I'm glad because otherwise, I probably wouldn't have done it. You know, just like if I think about myself, and
Darrell Etherington 7:20
not so much here. So knowing what I know, and I don't know that I would have done it. But I'm glad I did.
Keta Burke-Williams 7:27
Everything makes sense in hindsight. Yeah, exactly. It's like, come talk to me in five years and see, but I think, you know, if I were at my little corporate job at Carnival Cruise Line, and somebody came to me with a startup idea around the cruise industry, I could probably tell them all the reasons why it wouldn't work. And so that's kind of the feedback and pushback that I got with this idea of like, well, there are these huge legacy perfume houses and brands, why do you think you're gonna be different? It's really hard to start up, you know, a consumer business, why do you want to do it? And I had my reasons, but I'm just glad that you know, so far, so good. The jury's still out. But it's going well. And I think, yeah, there are ups and downs. And the piece that I think is the most surprising is I knew it would be a lot of work anyway. But it can be isolating and working on a startup, when you need to present this outside base, that things are going really well. And probably the headlines are, but the day to day is always this roller coaster, within the same day, you could get like some great news and some terrible news. And so that's something that I'm learning to cope with better, because I want to be able to do this for more than, you know, just one or two years. So
Darrell Etherington 8:27
I think that's also something we hear a lot about is like projecting external consistency, while like internally things are like wildly inconsistent, right? Like, it's just the nature of early, early business is the it's exactly, you know, like the best day ever. And then the worst day ever. And I could be the same day, right, like, to your point.
Keta Burke-Williams 8:45
Totally. Yeah. But I'm glad I'm so passionate about it. And like the best emails and like, I would say news that we get like, it's great to be covered in awesome outlets. And that's exciting, because, you know, I grew up reading those outlets. But I think the customer emails where somebody randomly sends me like a picture with the person they bought the fragrance for holding the scent, we got that yesterday, like I love those because that's, you know, the reason that I'm doing it. So that still I think makes me happy and passionate about what I'm doing.
Rebecca Szkutak 9:13
And I know from chatting with you in the past that family is sort of a big aspect of this startup journey and some of the idea of the startup sparked from an issue that your sister was having. So I'm curious me if you want to talk about that and sort of the role family has played in both sparking the idea and kind of getting things off the ground?
Keta Burke-Williams 9:30
Yeah, family has been everything I would say. So in terms of the idea it definitely came about because of conversations with my sister casual She's three years younger than me and like cooler and she was living in New York she still does. So we both live close to each other now, but I was visiting her for Thanksgiving and we were having a conversation around just like you know what's new in your life kind of deal and she was explaining how she had made swaps to a lot of you know what's traditionally called like clean beauty products. She had gone into a credo beauty store and kind of changed up her skincare and her color cosmetics routine. And then she was also looking for alternatives for haircare. And she was like with fragrance. I'm just like, not gonna I'm not wearing it really anymore. And I was like, What do you mean, you know, my love scent? And she's like, well, you know, I have asthma like we both have asthma and allergies. She's like I sneeze. Sometimes when I spray stuff, I get headaches from wearing fragrances, like it's honestly not worth it. And by the way, like a lot of these legacy brands that I was supporting, I don't feel like their values have come up to date. And they don't really care about like, supporting and valuing women who look like me or have you know, the same ideals that I do in that. And she's kind of like on that Gen Z cusp. So I think she's bolder about like, what she demands from brands, companies, everyone and she was she was right, you know, I was like, Oh, you can require more of your brands. So we started working on the idea together, she now works for a nonprofit, and she's still like, my kind of side here. But family has been really really important. She and my mom both have visited the perfumer with me are perfumer and manufactures in the Bronx in New York. So family has like been part of the everything I guess, coming to fruition all along.
Darrell Etherington 11:04
Is it hard on the supply side when you're working with perfumers like because you're looking to, you know, be very specific in terms of your ingredients. And like you're saying like sensitivities, do you find people are amenable to that? Or is it a big change over for like suppliers who are used to legacy way of doing thing?
Keta Burke-Williams 11:21
I would say it's a combination. There are definitely a lot of people who kind of laughed me off, and we're like, now we've always done it this way, we're gonna continue to do it this way, which is totally fine. No, you know, no issues with that. But there were some people who are willing to listen, and that's why I'm really glad I found our perfumer because I feel like they in the manufacture. They're women of color and business they work with, you know, much larger businesses than we do. And they were willing to see the vision and not lock me and be like, Okay, tell me more. Tell me why you're asking for this. And let's see if we can help you bring that to life. So I think yes, and no, but glad that like I found a partner that I can scale with who also sees the end kind of vision. Well, you probably
Darrell Etherington 11:59
wouldn't want everybody to say yes, because then that's true. That's true. That's true. That's definitely a trend. I've noticed, I have a friend who like founded a like a sustainable skincare business, right. And similar reasoning for like, why she founded it also like her and her partner, they both were like they both have like Asian heritage, like she's East Indian. And then her partner is Korean. So they were like, oh, like there's not something specific to this that also adheres to these kinds of values that we're seeing, like as a generational shift, or we think we're on the edge of a generational shift. So it definitely seems like the right kind of space to be in. Do you do a lot of like partnerships? Or do you think about like, the ecosystem as a whole and how you fit in there? Hmm,
Keta Burke-Williams 12:44
I guess yes. And no, so we're pretty early in our journey. So let's see what happens. But I definitely think we have our place in the ecosystem that we're carving out that doesn't super exist yet for fragrance, I think within skincare and haircare and color cosmetics, you know, all of those other kind of like beauty and self care categories have come a long way. Where clean, let's say as you know that general word can also mean like fun and full of personality or bold or whatever. But within fragrance, I think it's kind of that last category to see a lot of change. And so that's why I'm pushing that like, why couldn't luxury also mean consciously created? Why can it be locally made in the US? Why does you know luxury fragrance have to be made in grass France? Why can't it have a black person or a woman at the helm of a company? So I think we're pushing to carve out this space that doesn't really exist for fragrance yet. But I do think that we have a piece to play in this whole pathway of like creating beauty and alternatives for us that allow us to feel like we're you know, doing okay for ourselves. And at least not like actively harming the planet, is how I think about it. So that whole conscious piece.
Rebecca Szkutak 13:51
I'm curious and maybe you don't know this because I have no idea here. But it is interesting watching the revolution across other beauty industries over the last few years wanting to offer these clean products and sort of wanting to innovate on themselves. And you're totally right. I mean, I remember the first time we spoke about it, it took me about point five seconds to realize that you're right. I had not heard of any new or interesting fragrance companies in a long time. Why do you think the fragrance market specifically is like further behind something other than like, like I said, maybe you don't know. But that's something it got me thinking about that that like, is there something about this industry? That's why it's like lagging behind?
Keta Burke-Williams 14:28
That's a good question. And I don't have the 100% answer, but I do think like one fragrance is a big category but it's that kind of thing where it's all around us but we don't really actively think about it on like a lipstick where you can just like see it on someone. I just think it's there without being there. That's like a non answer answer. Second, it's a really how do I say like closed off industry really entrenched or really entrenched? Exactly. A lot of the knowledge has been around been there and kind of although the very beginning origins of fragrance Whereas all of these other countries, I would say in the last, you know, few 100 years, a lot of it has been concentrated, a lot of the knowledge has come out of France in this one place. And if you start doing your homework and digging on like perfumers and fragrance houses, you realize a lot of people are connected, and you know, just jump around from place to place. So there's not a lot of knowledge sharing. And I think a portion of that is because of like fragrances or this, you know, weird combination of like chemistry and artistry. And so more so than any other industry formulas are kept secret as well. So I think it's just like in the nature of the category, but I don't know, that still doesn't answer the question of like, why it hasn't evolved. But let's see, right. Like, I think that people are just realizing now that they can demand more and ask for more. Whereas I think maybe we were just took what we were given and pulled as fact. And now we're saying like, why can't we have these unusual scent combinations? Or why can't I wear a men's you know, fragrance or a woman's fragrance? Or why isn't there a unisex fragrance out there? So I think we're starting to see that shift. I'm not sure why it's been so late.
Rebecca Szkutak 16:05
Maybe Jen, I'm just like, spitballing here. And maybe it's because compared to some other type of beauty products, it takes a while to get through like a bottle of I mean, like drill, I'd love to know how long it takes you to
Darrell Etherington 16:20
really get through. I think I still have some cologne from when I was like, in college. That continues to work. Yeah, yeah, that is a good, I think that is a really good hypothesis is like, Yeah, you get it, and you're set, depending on your tastes or whatever. And then also, I just remember this sense growing up that like, I just remember, I think it was my grandmother's just people in her generation were like, oh, Chanel number five. And it's like this. That's it. That's all there is. And that's all you need. And you don't even worry about anything else. And then my grandpa was like Aqua Velva, or whatever. And like, that's all I had, and he didn't need to think about it. And there was like this kind of thing and carry your way. You're like, oh, there's there's five choices. And those are the choices. And we'll make do and it's fine. And we don't really need any more choices. But why not? Right. And I think that's where we're getting to now. Right, as people are saying, but why Why were those the only choices when there's a like virtually limitless, exactly. world out there in terms of combinations.
Keta Burke-Williams 17:20
Totally, totally. And I think it's not like you're gonna get rid of the Chanel Number Five unnecessarily if you still love it, and maybe it has a special place because it is nostalgic, but it's like, maybe you don't need to be a one cent kind of person. And you could expand your horizons. And I think that's exciting and kind of where we're hoping that will fit in.
Darrell Etherington 17:37
Yeah, I think absolutely. There's room for that. I just, I'm going to recommend people listen to this podcast, get out there experiment, Yes.
Rebecca Szkutak 17:44
By a sick colognes. But something that's so interesting about fragrance, which you hinted to earlier, which is definitely true is that unlike Well, I guess you get this with some of the other areas too, about certain colors are going to either pop on certain skin tones or look good with certain features and the like. But frequent seems so subjective. Because once I know this, because I'm always horrified at buying someone candles, I want to buy people candles for Christmas every year. And then I like I've like two people who I buy them for and everyone else I'm like, they could hate this. And I love it and I just avoid it. But like scent can be so subjective. So I'm curious, like when you were starting to pick out these first few cents that you guys are launching with? How do you navigate finding something that both fits the criteria and that you like, but also kind of come across when everyone experiences each cent differently? Oh, that's a great
Keta Burke-Williams 18:41
question. And I think I was a bit selfish on the iteration of the fragrances in the sense that I wanted it to be something that I really loved. Because I knew that if I would need to be like our biggest fan and our biggest salesperson, then I had to personally love the product. Because like, you know, the company is me. And I'm the company right now in these early stages. Hopefully later on, that won't be the case. But it's unlike, you know, working at Kraft Heinz where it's like I don't have to love Kraft mac and cheese to tell you that it's good to have it in your grocery store aisle. For me this is like I am asking people to take a risk to either change their buying behavior to ask a retailer to bring us on who's never heard of us. And so I need to love the product. And I think for me, it started with all of our sense right now we have three that we launched with are inspired by daydreams. And so it started with like a story. And then I would say like a hero kind of note or like scent experience or a chord, you could call it and from there, it kind of went on until like let me be more specific about how I want this to smell but more importantly how I want people to feel when they're wearing it. That's the thing I think has to do with like the combination of the creative director aka me and the perfumer where you hope that the perfumers able to translate your vision into reality. And it's you know, it could be hit or miss but luckily we have a really great partner that's able to do that and I think the best feedback is from people, for example, wearing our scent dusk, which is kind of like this very juicy Berry and fig at the outset, and then it dries down is this like, kind of like Woody ambery vibe. So very sultry kind of heavy feel. And the best part about it is like getting people's feedback that that's the sense that they get like, Oh, if you're going out to the club, like, that's what I would wear. And that's the thought I had in mind. So I'm glad that that translates, even if maybe they smell different accords. And I smell when I'm smelling it, because it is subjective. Like maybe I noticed more of the fig. And they notice more of the juicy Berry. At least they're getting the same feeling or vibe that I wanted them to get from it. But you know, is totally subjective. So it's the jury is always out. And I think that's the cool and weird thing about fragrance is there's never like this is, you know, 100% good or bad. It depends on how people experience it.
Darrell Etherington 20:50
It reminds me of wine as you're talking about it. Right. And I bet it has a lot in common when you hear tamales, talking about the different notes that are in there. And that's also like a highly subjective market also dominated for a long time by the French. Yeah,
Rebecca Szkutak 21:09
they're like, this is subjective, but we are right.
Keta Burke-Williams 21:12
Exactly. Exactly. I was gonna say I guess there are a few components to fragrances were like for us, I wanted the fragrance to be able to stand on its own a lot of like, traditionally, clean and quotes, fragrances are one or two notes or chords. And they're pretty simplistic. I wanted our fragrances to have good staying power to feel like complex fragrances. So there were some kind of check marks that they at least needed to, you know, fit certain parameters. But beyond that, totally subjective.
Darrell Etherington 21:37
Yeah, that I was gonna ask about that too, like, did it require a lot of basic chemistry work to get to the point where you're doing that in a clean way, but also has that stuff like the long lasting because that I know comes up again, and really exposing too much. But if you're in subreddits related to talking about it, they're like they often talk about like, Oh, this is great sense at first, but then when it fades, it kind of has, like you were talking about like it changes the character and that could be bad or it could go all way away altogether. So that's the often the complaint
Keta Burke-Williams 22:12
that's fine. You're just like a secret frag head. I wish like that's something for a discussion for another day. But I feel like I never understood that there are some people who are very passionate like 400 bottles of you know fragrance that they keep in like closets passionate.
Darrell Etherington 22:28
I'm not there yet.
Keta Burke-Williams 22:32
I think like yes or no. So it did require like a lot of research and a lot of you know, blind LinkedIn Outreach, and a lot of Luckily, our perfumers sort of is mentoring me, but I know that like I'm never going to be the perfumer so that's something I leave up to them, which was why it was so important that I did my research of like finding a good partner, because I wanted to make sure that our products are like one, you know, safe and made in an FDA compliant lab. And if that's like the International fragrance Association compliant lab as well. So that's important. But too, I only have knowledge about like what I think should work. And they have to tell me if if that in practice will actually work. Fortunately, they've been doing this for a while. So they were able to help me supplement. For example, if we take out some traditional nitro muscles which are used for staying power, then we need to make sure that we have a natural oil that's pretty heavy, that increases the staying power. So kind of like some tips and tricks and like swaps, that made it so that we can do our thing. Also, we use synthetics and our fragrances. So there's kind of like the all natural fragrance movement, we're not in that we're in this kind of like consciously formulated movement where we have a lot of nose, but we definitely have some safe synthetics because one, it can be more sustainable to source synthetic sometimes too. Sometimes aroma chemical is less like allergic reaction causing than the natural or raw ingredient. And then three, there are certain ones that also can help staying power. And so kind of like using a combination of those. We arrived at something that works, but it definitely could have been hit or miss for sure.
Darrell Etherington 24:01
Yeah, that sounds like it'd be a fun experience too. Because you could be like, oh, I want it to have this and this and that. But if you put that in there with that cancel each other out. Who knows what?
Keta Burke-Williams 24:15
Yes, it is always incredible. They're like, I mean, they have to be like magicians, right? Because they have to understand chemistry, since everything, like even water right is technically like a chemical or molecule or whatever. But at the same time they have to have this artistry. So I'm always amazed.
Darrell Etherington 24:28
I want to like change tack a bit and just go even further back because you mentioned figure skating, which is like I think it's super interesting that you did that. I saw that Maggie, our producer had some research and I saw that was in there and that you competed in Canada. So I also wanted to kind of make sure everybody knows that I'm from Canada get podcast because I always have to. But I also saw on your LinkedIn and I don't know if I'm like going too far back here, but I saw that you have Tim Hortons design you're like, Oh yeah, yes, I did work. It's also Canadian, but not the Canadian Tim Hortons. Right?
Keta Burke-Williams 25:04
Yeah, so like in terms of back history, my mom is Jamaican, but her family emigrated to Canada. Fun fact, more Jamaicans live off the island on the island. So I grew up like,
Darrell Etherington 25:15
yeah, my neighbors from my attention.
Keta Burke-Williams 25:19
Yeah, so I grew up going to Canada to Toronto, or like Toronto outskirts, which is now you know, the Greater Toronto Area each summer to stay with my grandparents were fun would figure skate there, all that good stuff. And then I lived in Ohio growing up, and we had some random Canadian friends who like opened up you Tim Hortons in the area. So that was like my high school job. I worked at the one which was actually like, close to my high school. And I was like a scholarship, you know, kid at a private school. So people's parents would come around and be like this, especially the summer after high school, they would come around and I'd be serving them at the drive thru window, and they would give me a little tip and I was like, No, it's really okay. Like, I actually am going to college like I'm quite fine. But I love those Timbits good experience. And so I'm wearing socks right now. So yeah, still people? Oh, no, no.
Darrell Etherington 26:05
I honestly was thinking like, do you find anything about the figure skating? Do you learn anything from that? That was like, formative to like how you do stuff? Or was it just kind of like something you did
Keta Burke-Williams 26:15
for fun? That was something I did for fun. And I was quite like, competitive about it. So in my dream, I was going to the Olympics, like probably was never good. But I think it's interesting because it's definitely an individual sport. And so just the learning of like, you try, try, try again. And if you fail, you keep on trying and getting up after you fall. And it's very painful. That learning and the learning of being like self motivated is something that has stayed with me throughout. And then just realizing that like, smells are important. Like I still remember the way that the rink where I grew up skating smells like smells like combination of Zamboni gas and cold air and I used to chew this Trident tropical gum, which I wasn't allowed to chew, but always shoot anyway. So like that combination of scents, for me is the skating rink. So I would say like the smells and the getup even after you fall has has been the thing that has been the tie from figure skating now.
Darrell Etherington 27:08
Did you ever nail a triple sabko?
Keta Burke-Williams 27:10
I did. I did. I did and I was you know, I was competitive. That was my that was my jam. I love jumps, not spinning as much but Double Axel triples out pretty much stopped after like a triple loop triple. Let's never. But yeah, I loved like I loved it. And it was interesting, because I was so like, competitive that when I quit, I just you know quit cold turkey because I was like, I can't do this in a mediocre way. Exactly. But later on, I came back to it. You know, after college when I was living in Chicago, I coached part time. And so that was pretty fun. Random but full circle.
Darrell Etherington 27:41
Yeah, I mean, I watched a lot of figure skating graph. I think a lot of Canadians. Yeah, probably.
Rebecca Szkutak 27:45
Drinking Tim Hortons coffee and do it myself.
Darrell Etherington 27:49
I don't have the grace or the Yeah, well, I used to so I have a similar sense memory with like, with ice. I definitely can smell like ice. Right? Like it just immediately comes to mind. Right? But I also had this is Tim Hortons comes back. Because when I was like five or six, I had to play hockey because my dad was like, He's gonna play hockey. But to get me to go, he had to buy me a box of Tim Hortons doughnuts every morning. Oh, was it? We had practice? No, it was a full box of 12. Full Size.
Rebecca Szkutak 28:18
talking way too much. You should tell him that. He knows.
Keta Burke-Williams 28:28
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, it's powerful. It really is. Yeah. sent in memory. Yeah,
Darrell Etherington 28:36
I did want to like this is back again to the business side. But I'm curious about the investor communications when like how that was for you. And like, because you got seed funding. Right. So I was how did that go for you? And was it an eye opening process as well? Or was it smooth or what wasn't smooth,
Keta Burke-Williams 28:51
definitely eye opening? I would say we're in the like, precede kind of stages. So not not see yet. If we're being specific. Of course, I don't, you know, we all draw those terms around. And it always seems to be shifting. But I got some very early stage funding. And it was from a combination of angels and some institutions and then a grant. And that was definitely a long and winding road. I think as a solo founder raising capital that was very difficult as a woman as a black woman, right? Like, we just know, the percentages. And I got a lot better throughout the process at learning if an investor was actually interested, or if they just needed to talk to me to tick off a box. And if they would ever invest in you know, something consumer product focused. And so it was Yeah, I think a good learning experience. I'm glad I did it wouldn't do it again. And when I raise next time, I think I'll also be you know, a lot more strategic about how I go about doing things, realizing that a lot of stuff is Connection based, but I'm fortunate that through my connections, I was able to get a few angels on board and I participated in TechStars that was awesome because they put a check in. I got a grant from Ulta Beauty That was the first time they were ever giving out grants to, you know, eight companies and so cobbled it together and just said, like, Hey, I'm gonna make it work. You know, thankfully it did. So I'm still here today, the company's still here today. Let's see what happens.
Rebecca Szkutak 30:12
Yeah, I know, something you've mentioned to me in the past that came up in this fundraising process is the nature of people maybe not thinking your startup and thinking of it more as a brand, which I imagine is felt across some of these other areas like cosmetics and like skincare as well. And I'm curious kind of how were you able to kind of overcome that or fight back on that idea that you were just a brand as opposed to a fundamental basketball company?
Keta Burke-Williams 30:36
Hmm. I think it had to do with two things. Primarily, I guess one was how I positioned it. I am somebody who works really hard. And I'm very ambitious. However, I'm more on the like, glasses, just half empty, slash half full side. I'm not like it's half full all the time. So I would say like, I'm, I think one was learning how I framed the opportunity. I think I was too realistic, almost, and not showing or selling like the what could the company become just like, oh, on an average realistic day, this is what the company will look like, no one cares about that. They want to know, if you really succeed, like, what does that outcome look like? So that was one big learning in terms of how to be more, you know, bankable. And then the second was illustrating the opportunity in the industry, I think I had to do a lot of teaching in a way, because investors are used to investing in what they know. And so that meant, me breaking down the fragrance category in the way that I see it and understand it and showing why there's opportunity for us, even alongside these legacy brands showing that, you know, BYREDO had a billion dollar exit showing that other companies have gotten acquired or are still going and growing. I think that was also really important to set the context properly, so that they could see that it wasn't just like a side hobby. And then the last piece is realizing that the people who didn't take me seriously and said that it's a side hobby, they're probably going to say that no matter what business I have, and so finding those right people who see me see my credentials, and I have to prove to them or show them, you know, the opportunity that the company has, but who kind of trusted me first,
Darrell Etherington 32:06
I want to ask more about something you said in there about the like when you go in and you can tell it's someone ticking a box. Like I feel like that must be particularly demoralizing. But it's something that also I think happens all the time and our audience, probably a lot of people have encountered that situation. But how do you handle that? And how do you think of those, like in the moment, do you kind of respond or point that out? Or do you just kind of say, like, Oh, this is a necessary part of the process? And I guess we'll just all kind of like play act until this is done or like, what is the reaction?
Keta Burke-Williams 32:36
Hmm, I think it's something I got a little bit more skilled with. As time went on. I'm that person who always wants to follow up always wants to like, show that I can do this or make sure I followed through. And I realized that I don't need to follow through in the same way with people that I sensed were less interested or that they weren't even really paying attention to me when we were having a conversation. You know, if you're checking your phone over zoom, I can see you looking down the whole time or something like you're just not interested for whatever reason, and that's okay. But I'm not going to spend my time trying to convince you to like me, I'm just going to say thank you. And if you're interested, you're going to follow up after I follow up, right. And so I think a lot of it was like getting over myself and getting over rejection as personal but also trying to do a little bit more detective work on the front end of saying like, have they actually invested in a company like mine? Have they ever invested in a woman? If they have not, you know, what makes me think that all of a sudden, they're going to invest in a woman or a consumer company, or whatever it is that they haven't done before? And then even asking them like, oh, I you know, you said you wanted to take this meeting? What about me? Or our story interests you? If they take the time to answer at least I know that they're somewhat interested, right? It's kind of like just trying to sort people out into the kind of categories of like, highly interested all the way to not interested and say like, not interested and is it worth my time to do a call just so that somebody knows that I'm out there? Or is it just like maybe I'll keep you on the investor updates and and talk to you and another year in case you become more interested. And I think like being okay with not having to win every single person over that was a big hurdle for me to get over. And I'm glad I did.
Darrell Etherington 34:11
Yeah, that's that's really great. Because it sounds like your natural instinct is to like, Well, I'm gonna give them the gas every single time. Like, it doesn't matter what they think because I'm extremely successful or whatever. Like I'm gonna be successful in this instance. Right? Because I'll try really hard but I think what you're saying is like really useful for peace of mind, which is like, conservation of energy and efficiency in this process, because it already
Keta Burke-Williams 34:37
Yeah. I'm sure you both have seen it with all the founders you've talked to and all the things you've written about. So yeah, something I'm learning but like, it seems like so essential.
Darrell Etherington 34:48
Yeah. But I think I've also like we don't personally experienced it, right. So it's something we have to gather from like talking to people but it was funny when you were talking about like not being necessarily like always like I is half full person, which is like the other thing that it's very hard for I think us on the journalist side maybe to understand because I think by and large and Becker, you can object if you want, like, we tend to be pessimistic by a natural orientation.
Rebecca Szkutak 35:18
Your mother tells you she loves you gotta check it
Darrell Etherington 35:20
out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So like VCs, and I've had many conversations, VCs do this every year, because they're saying they're doing what you're talking about, which is like, I'm looking for the thing that even if the odds are right against it, if everything goes, right, it's to the moon. And if it makes it all worthwhile, right, and I know the odds are against it. But if the odds pan out in my favor, in this one instance, it's going to be huge, right? Whereas we're like, oh, nothing's ever gonna work ever. It's all bad. And even internally, I mean, that's my management style, like, Hey, here's something we're gonna try. It's probably not gonna work everyone. accordingly. Yeah, so that's something you had to get over and kind of like, figure out right like that. That's the way because I think a lot of people think too, like, if I don't have that attitude, style, this isn't the life for me, like, I'm not gonna make it in this kind of Founder World, right? Yeah,
Keta Burke-Williams 36:13
I think it's something I mean, I'm still early. So come back to me, like two years, five years from now. But I'm trying to find the style of like, how can I make it work in this parameter and context of like, this is what you know, VCs and investors need to see and need to understand, but also what I can realistically do, and keep parts of myself that I think are important, and like, How can I marry those and find this balance? And that's what I'm still figuring out. But I think I definitely got better at throughout the process. Yeah,
Darrell Etherington 36:42
it's a journey, for sure. To keep that perspective, I think as you go through this, especially when all the investors are like, oh, yeah, like, what's your big, big picture thing? And why do you do how do you like, succeed in a 10x? Way, or whatever. And you're also like, but I do need to, like, build a sustainable business for myself and for the people working for me and for everything else, too. Right, exactly. But it seems like I trust you're very capable of a Qaeda because yeah, it's been fantastic talking to you. And I think you've articulated your vision very well. Do you have any last questions? Becca?
Rebecca Szkutak 37:13
I think my last question would be, why did you decide to end up going with this DTC route to kind of roll out the product, because I know consumer products, it definitely varies kind of like what channels you decide to do, and sort of like how that plan plays out. So I'm always curious how brands pick like which truck like makes the most sense, especially to start. So
Keta Burke-Williams 37:32
for us, we launched DTC, and later in the spring, we'll be going into retail, so definitely have this like omni channel mindset. But what I learned throughout these different, like beauty accelerators that I did was approximated my grocery experience, which is like it's expensive to be in retail, it can be great, people can see you, they can experience you, and you can get a lot more reach. But you have to know what you're doing otherwise, like, there are a ton of other brands who can suck up your space, energy time, like whatever it is. And the worst thing would be to get into your dream retailer and not be able to have the tools to succeed there and to be discontinued. So for us, it looked like wanting to build a brand community, you know, get some of the kinks and the glitches out and understand better our consumer and make sure we have like a tight handle on things, before we stepped foot into retail and even then picked a retailer that has a decent size footprint is really known for conscious beauty, who will partner with us who we can learn with, and then ride that out until it's time for you know, bigger retail, and I think about in the envision it would be to meet our customers and consumers wherever they shop. But how do we do that in a sustainable way until we get to that envision state? So that's how I've thought about it.
Darrell Etherington 38:45
I mean, that definitely seems like a complicated process, because you want to kind of like, do them in lockstep a bit because you want to build the recognition and then be on the shelves, the people recognize it. And then someone's walking by them and they're like, why are you buying that? You know, they're like, Oh, I love this brand is great. And then so you
know, all my, my solid clones are like, I think the digital it is branding and like brand identity is primarily what got me into most of them. And they are I think mostly smaller companies or big companies masquerading as small companies. In some cases, notice exactly. But yeah, I think it is important to build that brand first and have that and like know what your customers find appealing about it and like work out that relationship first with like your core customers, and then you can help that grow with the multi channel. That's the vision. That's the dream. Very cool. All right. Well, thanks again, Kayla. It's been really, really fantastic talking to you. Yeah, we'd love to have you on. So hopefully we'll have you back sometime in the future.
Keta Burke-Williams 39:47
Love that. Thanks for the time.
Darrell Etherington 39:55
All right. That was our conversation with Keita. I thought it was super interesting. We don't don't often talk about consumer goods on this podcast. So that alone was super interesting. Also, it's a weird pet project thing of mine sense, as we learned on the show. Becca, what did you think? What was some of the most interesting parts of the conversation for you?
Rebecca Szkutak 40:17
Yeah, I think the whole discussion around how the fragrance market has been particularly slow to innovate is one of those things where I hadn't really occurred to me as a consumer. And then she said that and I was like, Oh, my God, you're totally right. Like you hear almost every week of like a new clean beauty brand, or like a new celebrities dropping XYZ clean makeup, clean skincare, but you really just don't hear about perfume that often No. And so it's kind of interesting to dive in there. Even though it's weird. It never occurred to me, because I really don't like shopping for perfume. And I had one perfume I really liked forever. And then I like, dropped it in like a hotel trashcan in Toronto, and never to be seen again. And it was sold out. So like, I like, get why there needs to be innovation here. But it really hadn't occurred to me until we talked about it. Yeah, but sounds like you definitely are more of a connoisseur of this space. So what did you think? Well, I
Darrell Etherington 41:10
wouldn't go so closer. But I think I have a lot of similar experiences to you with it. Because I the reason I like it so much is essentially I'm chasing like one that I loved that I like don't have anymore. And then it's always like, gotta get back to that smell that one smell right. And I try a range of different ones to like find it. But yeah, I think the innovation thing was definitely interesting, because I only really started thinking about it recently when I was like, very practically or pragmatically, rather not. I don't think it's practical. But I was looking for solid clones because I wanted to take them in my carry on without having to worry about like, is it 100 milliliters or whatever the travel size is and all that stuff. So I was just finding out that there's a lot of like small brands that are doing travel cologne specifically, I guess it's an easy place to start if you're like an indie product manufacturer or something. So I started learning a bit more about this. But yeah, before that, it was like, I thought it was kind of a settled thing, right? Like, essentially, there's however many huge ones and they probably own like all the familiar brands that you know about, like, I'm thinking like, what are the names just like your car and your car Noir? Right? Like, I don't know what other ones are there. There's that one, which is from the 90s click Well, that was the popular the scent in the 90s but and then you know Chanel Number five, which is like famous and eternal and whatever else but it was so interesting to hear about it from caterers perspective, and and like how they also wanted to do it because they felt like nobody was kind of like serving them. And it's true I because this is a category that if it is like one of these ones that seems sort of eternal and unchanging, then obviously they established what are the standards a long time ago, and they were catering to a one very specific type of customer, which was essentially like, white, middle class, upper middle class buyer, right? So yeah, it was really interesting hearing about her journey to it too, and how like, it came from a personal place with her and her sister.
Rebecca Szkutak 43:11
And it's such an interesting place to think about building a consumer product, because of course, like, in theory, any type of consumer product, people are going to experience it differently from each other. But scent is so specific in that way. Like I mentioned, like I'm afraid to buy half the people I know candles for events, because everyone smells everything different. You have no idea what notes people are going to pick up or like what they're going to like and not like. So I think it's like consumer products are always hard, you don't know how they're going to be received. So kind of building in a space where it's widely known that the exact same product is going to smell differently to every single customer is such an interesting concept to me of trying to like navigate what the vision is, but also like what people will like and trying to find that sweet spot seems probably more difficult in this category than a lot of others.
Darrell Etherington 43:57
Yeah, it seems like quite the high wire act. But it seems like she's very comfortable now and being like, well, if I like I have extremely high standards, and if I like it, there's going to be a certain proportion of our customers that are going to like it that's probably enough to make the business succeed. Right, which is probably takes a while to get there. But that's what you have to do in any industry like this where it's about tastes right. I think you have to be right consider yourself a tastemaker and then be confident in that going forward right? But I did think it was interesting to her talking about the conversation with venture and there is the big challenge of having to convince people to begin with it. This is a venture bankable category which is pretty amazed with any kind of like direct to consumer goods when you're on just the product side. But the also you know your comments about she could literally sense when she was in rooms and people were just using her to check a box that to me felt so I mean, I don't know how that feels, obviously because I'm privileged in certain ways, but I also like can't imagine how that that would make you feel and it would be awful, right? Like, just like, because then you're in the middle of it, and you have to continue. And it's the situation where it's like, you can't escape it. But you're also are like, Oh, this is, this isn't going anywhere. For anybody. This is like, totally, I'm being used it's objectification. Really. Right.
Rebecca Szkutak 45:15
Right. No. And that's kind of like, it almost like breaks your heart like you put in all this effort. And it's like, if you're not interested in the company, just don't take the pitch meaning Yeah, like, entrepreneurs are used to hearing No, so often that it's like, that's not the negative, it's almost worse to hear the Yes. Come in for the pitch and know that they're not saying yes, because they actually care about the company, right? Or you and like, I feel like that's almost worse. I hope people listen to this and sort of don't think or maybe well, don't make it theatrical. Like that's the key idea, right? It's like, have those meetings but consider maybe learn they're not subtle. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm sure people who like do those kind of behaviors think that the entrepreneur is just so so happy to get in front of them? They'd never pick up on that. But like, newsflash, entrepreneurs are picking up on it. And that's a really bad look.
Darrell Etherington 46:03
Yes, that's right. You're not getting away with it is a good takeaway. But yeah, it is really rankles to be like, oh, like, this is in service of a later Transparency Report, which is when you get the impression of like, then at the end, they can put out like, we took pitches from this many, you know, entrepreneurs have diversified backgrounds or whatever. And you're like, a Sox. So, so hard. So yeah, I think that was like, you know, just the status thing, I think that we hear during that interview. But on the flip side, I mean, I think it was very, you know, it was just super interesting to hear that she kind of like stuck with it and got the backers that she needed, and got the people who believed in the mission and was able to go out and actually do this, right and create this brand and create this product. So that was cool.
Rebecca Szkutak 46:48
Yeah, cuz I know, shocked about launching, DTC first. And then sort of thinking about going into stores. That part of consumer goods is always really interesting to me, I read a whole book about grocery stores supply chains, which makes me sound really interesting. But that's a big part of it. Because shelf space is so competitive and all that stuff. And like, I understood that part of it, how like, it's hard to get on the shelves, it's hard to kind of keep the spot, but I hadn't thought about it from the way she explained it as DTC allows you to sort of build a following first will then go and buy it in the store. Because if you lose it hunt accordingly, like you lose that spot, you're out. Yeah, like, oh, you probably won't be asked back, even if you do sort of gain that following in the future, because especially because DTC has, in some ways fallen out of favor with VC investors over the last couple of years. But hearing her explain it like that, it makes a lot more sense why so many companies are still pursuing that strategy, because like, I just hadn't even thought about like, the marketing side of it. Yeah. Now, it'll impact going into like physical retailers later on.
Darrell Etherington 47:50
Yeah, there's those. I mean, I think that is really interesting. And I'm glad you read about it. But like, I feel like other people should read about it. Because it is it's immensely high stakes game like stocking shelves and like, there's so much involved in it. And there's so many ways that it could go very wrong. Yeah, it has tremendous impact on your potential and your viability as a consumer packaged goods brand. Right. So yeah, that was that was great to hear. And I like the thinking behind it, too. I know it is a shame that like that was it was kind of a fad category for VCs of that funding Avenue is not as available as it used to be. I mean, I think there are still some VCs who specialize in that who have not super changed like foreigner I think still looks in that direction. Right? But yeah, not like it was a few years ago when everybody was ready to back whatever new brand that came out so good that she got in when she did and I wish her the best of luck in terms of getting on those store shelves and getting people buying her sense. If I see it, I'll be spraying it everywhere. Just basking it wafting myself through it. It's a video, not a video
Unknown Speaker 48:54
at the airport getting a
Darrell Etherington 48:55
confiscated for being too large bottle but that's just a way of sharing the love because you know those border officers are just taking it home and using it themselves.
Rebecca Szkutak 49:02
That's what they do. They take all that. Yeah, that's
Darrell Etherington 49:05
right. all this cool stuff. Found is hosted by myself Managing Editor Darrell Etherington and TechCrunch plus reporter Becca skew tech were produced by Maggie Stamets with editing by Cal Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator Alyssa stringer leads audience development and Henry pic of it manages TechCrunch his audio products. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.
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