After starting her career as part of Drake's management team, founder Courtne Smith has gone on to create a couple of different apps aimed at capitalizing on new and emerging behavior in online social interaction. Her latest venture, NewNew, is a bit like a stock market mixed with a crowdsourcing platform for the decision-making of creators, artists, and even just everyday, ordinary people. We talk to Courtne about her path to entrepreneurship, and what's happening in social that's changing how people want to engage.
After starting her career as part of Drake's management team, founder Courtne Smith has gone on to create a couple of different apps aimed at capitalizing on new and emerging behavior in online social interaction. Her latest venture, NewNew, is a bit like a stock market mixed with a crowdsourcing platform for the decision-making of creators, artists, and even just everyday, ordinary people. We talk to Courtne about her path to entrepreneurship, and what's happening in social that's changing how people want to engage.
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Darrell Etherington 0:00
Hello, and welcome to found I'm Darrell Etherington, and I'm here with my fellow researcher, my co author on this academic paper that we call our podcast.
Jordan Crook 0:10
Yeah, my name is Jordan Crook, PhD. In found ology.
Darrell Etherington 0:14
That's right. This is a very serious scientific business that we do here. And you know that of course, already, if you've been a frequent listener of found, if you have not heard found, you probably already turned off the podcast. But if you're still here, this is a podcast from TechCrunch, all about building a startup and all about the people that build those startups. So founders, so we interview a different one every week about their experience and woud their experiences vary, we have discovered that that was our hypothesis going in, and we have proven it to be true. And a shadow of a doubt. It's peer reviewed, and published.
Jordan Crook 0:51
All over the journals.
Darrell Etherington 0:57
Okay, this week,
Jordan Crook 1:01
it's going great, queued up, keep going. It was good. This is what founders have to do this week, they persevere.
Darrell Etherington 1:09
You can edit this out. This week, our guest is Courtne Smith, the founder of nu nu, which is the same word repeated twice, but is also a super interesting social platform, which I was really excited to dive into. Because we don't get much in the way of like exciting new social platforms and where you can kind of like variations on ideas or iterations of ones that have proven successful previously, but don't necessarily pan out. Courtne's is quite different. And the model is basically one where you engage with creators on the platform, which is a wide variety of people can be people with already some renown and some kind of reputation, or it can be just anybody. And you basically buy equity in their time you exchange actual money for voting percentage on what they do next. And they can kind of set the terms of like, Listen, I want you to decide my outfit, or if I should get a tattoo, yeah. Or if I should get a tattoo, and then you vote on that. And if you pay more, you get more of a say in what they do next. So Jordan, what did you think of Courtne's startup here?
Jordan Crook 2:22
I will say, Courtney story, it was very, very interesting. I liked hearing like, how she became a founder and entrepreneur, yes. But in terms of the product, like I have a lot of feelings about it. To be honest, I do think it's very interesting. I think that we're probably headed this way. But it gives me a lot of like, anxiety and fear. And I even was talking to my family about the episode and about the product, because it was still on my mind after we recorded and they were very filled with trepidation. My parents in particular were like, why would someone pay to make your decision, you have to choose for yourself personal accountability, you know, and it was really intense.
Darrell Etherington 2:59
I think that's a good summary of this episode. I think it's an episode that will make you want to seek counsel from your family and and sort of like sit with them and decide how you feel about the future. But it's interesting, because it's not like Courtne or new new were like the first ones to come upon this idea of putting decisions out to the crowd, it's just that they're the first one is to make it front and center, and then also to make it like the commercial engine of the platform, right. But it is, in a way, sort of a specter of like a techno collapse like a techno disaster, right. But it's also like, Hey, I wouldn't mind giving up some agency, especially when I'm just like, feeling pretty lazy and don't want to decide, you know, which of two restaurants to order from for dinner, for instance, right?
Jordan Crook 3:43
But like, you could slippery slope that into what should I do on much bigger things, you could look at it through a lens of optimism and say, two heads are better than one, right? Or you could say like, all these people are either like, maliciously intended, and they are, they would like to see me do something for their own twisted pleasure. Or they're just not very thoughtful and intelligent, and they push me into making worse decisions than I would have made myself. Right. And all of that is why it gives me anxiety.
Darrell Etherington 4:15
Well, hopefully, when you listen to this listeners, you'll decide for yourselves whether you're hearing anxiety, or maybe you'll just auction that off to someone else to decide whether or not you find it troubling, but it is a super interesting story. And Courtne's theory as Jordan mentioned is super interesting, Drake's assistant before Drake was Drake the good times. And yeah, go ahead and enjoy the episode.
Hey, Courtne, thanks for joining us today.
Courtne Smith 4:46
Thank you for having me.
Darrell Etherington 4:47
So you are an entrepreneur. You've got a startup called the new new just give our listeners a bit of an idea of what it is I've got it I've downloaded it and I've been using it.
Courtne Smith 4:57
Yeah. So new new is it is Decision Making platform where you can vote to control the outcomes of other people's lives. And you get rewarded by watching people live out what gets the highest amount of votes from the audience. So you essentially pay to follow along on a person's journey. And you get to decide on everything from big life decisions to mundane decisions. So, you know, what should I eat for dinner or breakfast to like, should I get a dog tomorrow, and people really participate and help you make these decisions. And we realize that we unearth something that really taps into pretty much the human psyche, and something that will definitely shaped the future of the Creator economy, but also just like the world economy at large,
Darrell Etherington 5:43
You make it sound so easy to give your decisions over.
Jordan Crook 5:47
Yeah, I think it's I just have to comment that I feel like sometimes founders get so embedded in their idea that when they present it, they say it like it's a normal thing. Like you just said that other people are voting on my big decisions in life,
Darrell Etherington 6:00
but like people are voting already on your decisions, Jordan, I mean,
Jordan Crook 6:04
I know. And it all makes sense, because I ask people all the time.
Darrell Etherington 6:07
Yeah, all the time. We asked on other social platforms, there's a lot of tools built in for this day, right?
Jordan Crook 6:13
Yeah, polls and stuff. I get it. Like it's all there and user behavior. And it makes sense. But then I get this black mirror theme music going off in my head as well.
Darrell Etherington 6:22
Yeah. I mean, you could see how people might say like, Oh, well, I mean, like, Isn't that too far, but like cardi, where did you come up with the idea? Like, why did you think this is something that people definitely want to have access to?
Courtne Smith 6:33
Yeah, it's not just something that we came up with on the spot, it's been something that's been a work in progress, like for many years, like for over two years. So I guess for context, you know, my co founder, and I started an app called surprise in 2018. And on that app, it was a contest app. So you would play games to win free prizes. And the way that it worked was the audience had to vote on things that we would give away, and you'd have to vote it above 80%, for us to drop it. If it hit below that, we wouldn't give it away. So the audience controlled us as a company and how we pretty much like gave stuff away, or if we didn't, and it was a really, really cool kind of social hack and social experiment. And people love that just as much, if not more than they loved winning prizes, because not everybody's gonna win. But everyone can participate in, you know, this, like short moment of giving their two cents. And we realized there's something bigger here that we can tap into, and something that can scale at an even bigger, you know, rate and pace than what we were doing with surprise. And that's been like a two year process of just iterating on different ideas around voting and decision making and just controlling outcomes. And that's really how we got here. So I would love to be like, Yeah, I just came up with it yesterday. But it's not it's been like two years of analyzing, working with psychologists and sociologists and learning about human behavior and learning about what people like and how people like to be involved in different processes. And that's really the truth as to how we got here,
Darrell Etherington 8:05
like creator economy to is like at the forefront of this, right? So the best creators are really engaged with their fans, right? And like to like, be in there in the mix in the comments and talking to them and responding and stuff like that. So is that another key ingredient here? Like? Is it like, people want to go even further with their engagement with kind of creators?
Courtne Smith 8:23
Yeah, one thing that we realized, while building new new is, it's so much greater than just creators. Like, we also notice there's this thing going on right now where people equate creators to celebrities, right? When that's not necessarily the case, what we've seen is creators are just normal people who feel like comfortable coming online and doing something like you don't need to be a giant YouTuber, or a giant tick talker. And what's really cool about new new is a lot of the people that are using it aren't traditional creators. We have students on there who have no social following. We have aspiring authors who, you know, they're not JK Rowling, we realize that there's something so much greater than just traditional creators. And we're tapping into that already. And that's where to us the magic really is it's, it's beyond, like we say, create our economy, but it's beyond create our economy, right. And that's also what makes other people interested in what we're building is the region, that impact is so much bigger.
Darrell Etherington 9:22
So I mean, I like the appeal, because like, I want to outsource a lot of my decisions, right? Like that, to me is just a baseline thing of like, I don't want to I don't want to think about this anymore. Like I want to
Jordan Crook 9:33
sign up for me. I'm curious about that too. Because like is that like a generational thing? Because like, I could be wrong about this, but it feels like this new, like creator economy are like millennials Gen Z, folks. I could be wrong about this too, because I'm not a psychologist by any stretch. But like, I think anxiety is more a part of our common daily lives, like particularly the younger folks than it used to be like 3040 years ago, and this like kind of paralysis Around decisions because it almost feels like every single one is like, okay, rock hard place like, was the lesser of two evils for the small stuff and the big stuff. Think about something as simple like you use the example of what should I eat for dinner? Well, we just recently on the other podcast that we do, we're talking about see spirits, right? And like, what can you actually eat for dinner? That is yummy that you want to eat at this point, right? Everything's bad for the environment. And I'm not like complaining about that. But do you think that there, you've tapped into something that isn't just necessarily about creators, but about all of us? Because at the end of the day, even people like Darrell and I, who are technically creators, but like, I don't want to outsource my creative decisions, even I want to outsource? I have to do.
Courtne Smith 10:41
Yeah, I mean, for a lot of people making decisions is like a very paralyzing thing. And you know, whether it is like those mundane decisions, or like, should I get a tattoo, but you always end up kind of outsourcing those responses from other people like whether it's your friends, or your family, or like random people on your Instagram, we're just doing it in a more cohesive way. And in a way where the people who are giving you the feedback, firstly, they paid to be a part of your life, right? So off the bat, they obviously care about what you're doing. And they want to have a say in what you do next. And that already gives you a certain level of like, Okay, if I do this, like these people really like me, they obviously are part of my journey, and what they're telling me to do, or what they're suggesting makes sense for me. So it's really about building into that. And I'd say, yeah, I mean, decision making. It affects all of us, like every day, we all have to make a million decisions. And you don't need to ask the audience for every single decision. But sometimes it is nice to get outside input on certain things. Yeah. And it's cool to have a community of people who are backing you to do that.
Darrell Etherington 11:45
Yeah, I get like the financial incentive is an interesting part two, because it's not like it's just like somebody who's coming and sort of like dropping their pen. And then they're out like a casual, kind of like a drive by opinion sharing thing. So can you explain a bit the monetization thing so I can understand better how that works? And how kind of like people participate in that.
Courtne Smith 12:03
Yeah, so we're running a beta right now, where you pretty much paid to own a voting slot in someone's life. And the more money you spend is, the more control you have, because it's the more slots that you own. So yeah, so basically, what's really interesting is we've seen people come in and buy like a minimum slot, and then get really interested in a particular person to spend more money so that instead of their vote holding, like five votes, and wait, it would hold 10. So they can sway the decision more. So that's a really interesting thing that we've seen. And another thing we've seen that's really cool is, there are people using the platform for things that go even beyond just basic decisions. Like there's something that we call the process economy, where we've seen authors on our platform, flatten their next short story by having people decide on outcomes of things. So whether it's the storyline for the book, or the title, or the character names, or you know, the genre, it's like a whole different world, the way that people are using it like these authors. And for us, it's kind of like, oh, cool, like, we've now unlocked something even bigger than what we initially thought we could. Yeah. And it's definitely going to be something that we see being used by creatives and filmmakers and people who want to write screenplays like whatever it is having people a part of your creative process, especially in like the creative world. It's something that we're already seeing is very beneficial to those people.
Darrell Etherington 13:24
Yeah, that's interesting, too, because there's been like, crowdsourcing platforms for I'm thinking wattpad, right, like wattpad has like a social aspect. And people like jump in and like kind of like help guide a little bit right to conversation. But this is almost like a, this is like a creative equity. It's like you're buying a stake in a work and not in like the financial outcome of the work, but in the creative outcome of the work, right, which is super interesting.
Courtne Smith 13:48
Yeah. And it's funny, a lot of the authors are from wattpad. So they started on that another on, you knew, and this is how they're deciding what they do next. But they're short stories, and what their next books and stuff. So it's like a natural transition for a lot of people. And by partaking in these people's lives, like you're not going to become an evangelist for you know, these authors, because you are part of creating these moments and creating the storyline. So those are going to be your biggest backers and your biggest supporters when it comes time for you to launch and like get the word out, like those people are going to be there. Like, I chose the name, and I chose the title. So it's really cool to see.
Darrell Etherington 14:25
Yeah, for sure. Yeah,
Jordan Crook 14:26
I have a question. I'm big gamer, and I love Twitch. And this feels like the kind of platform that would be great for this. And it already kind of exists in a lot of ways on Twitch right, like streamers will put goals out and I actually I just saw a tweet this morning. One of my friends is a streamer and he made the he brought down the threshold for I guess bits that he could get so every 250 bits, he took a shot of lemon juice and ended up taking like 12 shots of lemon juice last night. And I guess I bring that up because at times, particularly with certain communities, it can feel a little So this stick, right? You know, masochistic, right? Like these kind of like, should I do this awful thing or this awful thing, and people will actually like spend a lot of money to watch someone do something that makes them uncomfortable, right, as opposed to some of the positive use cases you're talking about. And I was just wondering, like, how do you think about that? And do you have kind of like guidelines outlines for how things should go? Or is it kind of just like, hey, let's see what, where people go with this. And whatever, as long as it's legal and make them happy, I don't care. You know, like, what, what are your, what's your thinking on that?
Courtne Smith 15:33
Yeah, so we do have community guidelines. But I'd say outside of that, right, now, we are running a beta. And we're pretty strict. And we're pretty intense with overseeing everything that's happening. And like, that's really important to do at these early stages, because we want to make sure to cultivate the right type of community and cultivate the right type of experience, and just overall feelings that people get. So definitely, at the end of the day, people are going to end up doing things that they shouldn't do, like that happens on every platform. But it's our job as a company to course correct and do what we can, as early as we can to prevent that type of behavior. And you know, from the very early stages, like we are in right now is to put people on like the rails and be like, this is what you should be doing. And this is what you should not be doing. And if you do something you shouldn't be, you will be penalized, you'll be removed, we will ban your device, like you will not be on this platform again. So we do take that very seriously. And we understand also, as much as we're building something that's fun and cool. And people love it. There is going to be you know, a dark side inevitably at one point, and it's just up to us to be ahead of the curve.
Darrell Etherington 16:38
Yeah, yeah, I mean, anytime of the year inviting people to like, share stuff in a Social Forum, then it's gonna be used for that. You just have to, like, you know, make sure that you're on it. And it seems like you're being very intentional about like, well, this is the type of behavior we want, while the platform is small. And then hopefully that'll sets a tone for like, as it grows, right? Yeah.
Jordan Crook 17:00
Can you tell us a little bit about like, what are their metrics that you give to like the decision givers, the creators, essentially, because he could see there's so many situations in which creators are like, you might know that this one person likes every single post, or they comment on every single post, but you don't really have like that, like an analytics tool. And this feels like something that's super quantifiable, right? Where if I become like, super obsessed with a certain creator, and I've bought like the majority of the voting slots, that's something that they need to know, right? Like, I am a super fan, like I will spend money on all kinds of things to just be close to you, and interact and engage with you. And that's useful information. Like how do you guys think about that?
Courtne Smith 17:40
Yeah. So right, now we have a really cool way of doing that, where every time you post a decision, you can see who voted on it, how much weight they pulled in terms of how many slots that they purchased, you can keep track of you know, what you've earned. on the backend for creators, we have more insight that a regular user doesn't see who's just paying to participate. And we're also working to build out like an even more robust ecosystem for creators. And also like, right now, we are also just iOS, and we're going to be implementing web, which is going to allow us just even more flexibility. And we also take a lot of feedback from people who are in the beta, which is really the best way for us to grow. And the best way for us to know what to do next. Because like, as founders, it's always fun to do what you want.
Darrell Etherington 18:28
Because you don't want to work for somebody else, right?
Courtne Smith 18:31
Like, we all think we have like the best, you know, best and blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, like you need to be building what people want. And like when people find valuable and useful. So for us right now, it's about communicating with the creators who are using the platform, you know, getting a sense of what works for them, what would be helpful for them to know. So it's a constant work in progress for us.
Jordan Crook 18:52
Can we talk about what different platforms you're on? And is that like, based on an API? Or is that like the new new as a platform? Or like, how does that work? Because it could work on any social platform, essentially. Right? Right. Yeah. And
Courtne Smith 19:03
you new is a standalone platform right now. And it's on iOS only. But I mean, we are expanding shortly to web and also to Android. But we've been iOS like we started always like our products have always been iOS. And as we iterated over the years, we just stayed with iOS because we were familiar with it. But definitely a product like this. It lends it almost lends itself better to web than it does just an app to be honest. Because it's like so many more people can use it is so much less friction two, it's a lot more friction to get on an app. And it's just like get on a site, whether it's from your browser, your laptop, or desktop, mobile, whatever. So we're definitely going to look into going into web and Android as well.
Darrell Etherington 19:45
If you're listening to found you're probably already super interested in startups, and the overall startup ecosystem, so we've got a great deal for you. We're going to offer you 50% off either a one year or a two year subscription to extra crunch. extra crunch is techcrunch's premium. product offering. And when you go there, you'll get deep dive interviews with some of the top founders in the industry, who get market maps on specific vertical goals, some of the most exciting areas of growth and startup land. You'll also get surveys of some of the top VCs in different areas, including different geographies. So you can subscribe to extra crunch at extra crunch calm, that's probably the easiest way. Or if you're already on TechCrunch, follow the links for extra crunch. And you'll get a prompt to subscribe and then just enter that code that's found the name of this podcast during checkout and you'll get 50% off on either a one year or a two year subscription. Stepping back even for the product and going more into kind of your story as a founder and an entrepreneur, right? Because we just are joking about it. But like one of the motivations for found or a lot of founders is they want to be their own boss, and they want to like do their own thing, right? I'm curious for you like how did you get into entrepreneurship to begin with? And how did you find yourself founding a company?
Courtne Smith 21:01
Yeah, it didn't happen overnight. It took me many, many years to get to where I am right now. And I say that like every step that I took played a key role in me getting here. But I guess kind of speaking to what you just said, like I always knew that I wanted to build something one day That was my own and do something that would touch you know, millions of people around the world and you know, bring joy or make people happy or bring something useful to the table. And I've always been really creative. And I've always had, like bigger than life ideas that are just for a lot of people maybe ridiculous, but I've always done like I can do something really unique and really interesting. But from like a background perspective, I started out in entertainment A long time ago. But yeah, I got my start, like way back I worked with Drake started out as his assistant, right. Like before, I would say like he was even quote unquote Drake before he really was like, as big as he is, right. And I was his assistant for about two and a half years. And he offered me a job when I was still in college. And I kind of had to take that leap and go like, do I want to like keep going down this route where like everyone, especially when I'm Canadian. So I'm from Toronto.
Darrell Etherington 22:18
Oh, yes, that's good. Yeah, I'm also Canadian. Also from Toronto, we wanted to up the can count.
Courtne Smith 22:27
I like Canada's like, awesome. I love it. It's also a very safe place. And so it was a really big for me, it was a big risk at the time to go down that path. Because I was like, oh, like everyone else is going down this path and bassy safe. And it was really early. Like we didn't know what what was going to come of his career or what was going to happen. And I took some time to think about it. And I was actually shocked. Like my family was like, you should just do it. Because school will always be there. And if for whatever we and it's crazy, because also like my dad was a pastor. Oh, so for him to be like, yeah, go follow a wrapper around.
Very strange. But I mean, I'm obviously happy that I took that leap. And I did it. And yeah, I worked with him for two and a half years as his assistant. And then as he was growing really quickly, he launched a company called dream crew, which is the management company that handles like all of his business initiatives and his investments and stuff like that. And I worked there with his manager for like 10 years. Wow. So yeah, so I've been there pretty much since day one and have seen him like grow and see the business grow. And it's been really, really crazy. And I realized on that journey that I love doing this, but I also want to do something for myself, right. And I want to build something for myself because I always had that in me. And so I was introduced to the same co founder I have now we were introduced like five years into me working with Drake and him and I launched a hair extension company called Theron, which was really awesome. And Shopify voted as like one of the best design sites. And I realized I'm like, Oh, I like doing this. I was like, I like creating things and making things and producing things that people want to like buy or use or talk about, like, that was a really crazy feeling. And then when I started looking into tech, I was like, you can do that on such a bigger scale and with technology that you can't even with beauty, right? And we both were just like we should, you know, get into tech and I was always obsessed with just like looking at consumer products. I was always analyzing products before I even knew I would be in this industry. And you know, we spent some time thinking about different ideas. And then that's how we landed on surprise, which we launched in 2018. And then, like I said, like a lot of iterations and playing around and getting obsessed with decision making. So that's how I got here. So it's like a very long winded many different experiences across different industries as well. But all of those things helped me figure out where I should be and where I should be as definitely where I am right now
Jordan Crook 25:06
have a question because like, you just told a story about taking chances, right? Like repeatedly, and it feels like each one of them pays off, right? The ability to go take another chance becomes easier, because you're like, Hey, I did this once.
Darrell Etherington 25:21
But even when you had something good, you took all these chances from success already.
Jordan Crook 25:25
Yeah, I think my question is, like, at any point during that stint, did you take a chance that didn't work out because I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs take the chance and it works out or it like works out, at least in a way good enough for them to be like, I could do this again, like, I could take another chance. Like I at least have these proof points that tell me that taking a chance is a good thing. And it'll pay off in some way. And I'm just I don't take chances with anything ever.
Darrell Etherington 25:50
Yeah, that's why me and Jordan are here, right now, on this side. We don't take a chance.
Jordan Crook 25:56
Did you learn like, are you gonna leave? TechCrunch? Like, what? No, I'm gonna die here because I do not take chances. But like, you know, I just it blows my mind the idea that someone could keep kind of jumping off a ledge and feel okay about it. And I want to know, is it because you have that feedback loop of like, hey, this, I can do it like this can work out? Or is there fear and anxiety built into that as well? And you just do it anyway? Like, I I can't even get into that mindset?
Courtne Smith 26:22
Yeah, definitely. I see it being counterintuitive to a lot of people, for sure. I mean, each time I do something, I'm taking a giant risk, because I have no idea what the outcome is gonna be. But to me, I would rather take that risk and know that I tried my best then kind of just sitting in one spot. That's just me personally, like, I don't want to ever just be in a position where I'm like, oh, what could have been? And even if things don't work out, I guess like, yeah, I haven't been in a situation where it hasn't. But that's also because I'm extremely relentless. Like, I will keep pushing until I figure something out. And I would say maybe that's what makes me different than a lot of people like I don't throw my hands up and give up. And I'll only walk away from something if I'm just like, you know what, this just doesn't make any sense at all right? won't waste my energy, but for things that I do passionately believe in, like, I will keep going, and I will not stop and I will not be stopped.
Darrell Etherington 27:18
See. And that that is the difference because we ensure will throw up our hands at least inconvenience and will be like, well,
Jordan Crook 27:27
like, I'm not even sure we should be doing this right now. This feels risky. I didn't realize this was
Darrell Etherington 27:31
gonna be hard. I'm not I don't want to do that.
Jordan Crook 27:35
I, it's particularly difficult for me, I say this a lot of TechCrunch that I'm an idea, person, all kinds of ideas. And then someone's like, okay, go do that. And I'm like, Oh, no,
Unknown Speaker 27:45
you call the blood. work.
Courtne Smith 27:52
It's funny, because everyone has really great ideas. Like everyone has an idea person, but like the differences in the execute. Also, it's like, it's really not for everyone to have an idea and like, keep going because honestly, I'm a crazy person. Like what I do is crazy. And it doesn't make much sense, because there's no safety net. So yeah, like I said, it's counterintuitive to even do and it doesn't make sense for most people. But if you really do you want to build something great or, you know, really make a change and make an impact. Like you're gonna have to go against the grain and take those risks, and they might not work out. But you don't know if you don't try. And that's just how I look at it.
Darrell Etherington 28:30
Right? So you mentioned that you always have this drive to like, do something like huge, that was your thing that was original, right? Like, but it doesn't. It sounds like it found different expressions over time, right? Like you evolved kind of what you thought that was gonna be. So when you when you first start out, for instance, did you think Did you see what was going to be creative? You said, You're a creative person, it would be some kind of like creative endeavor, but then eventually you found tech was the thing that had this reach? Or how did that kind of go for you
Courtne Smith 28:56
definitely always been creative. Like there's also like worlds in my life that I completely forgot about, like, at one point, I was a blogger. But even that, like I've managed to get a blogger from Toronto,
Jordan Crook 29:07
see the twins.
Courtne Smith 29:13
But even then, I did really cool things like I partnered with giant brands, and like I was the first person in the back of every taxi in Toronto, like doing things about Toronto. I'm like, telling you where you should eat and where you should shop. And that was like, first of its kind like, this was like pre Uber taking over, obviously. But I guess like even with that I tried my best to do things that nobody else would do. I was always thinking like, bigger picture. And then I guess that's a really good example of like, okay, I was doing that. But I don't want to do this forever. And I know there's something else I can do this bigger. So I just kind of left that alone and moved on. Right. And I guess that's an example of knowing like, when to do something else or not that it wasn't doing well. I just was like, I can do something else that makes more sense for me that I something that would have a bigger impact. So I was like, let me spend my energy there.
Darrell Etherington 29:59
So and he With surprise, you mentioned surprise, right? But you've essentially pivoted from that original idea to the new new, right. So you also know, like when to adapt in order to capitalize on what looks like a bigger potential opportunity, right? For sure.
Courtne Smith 30:12
Yeah. And it's funny because surprise, the minute I would not admit it, but I would say like, the first two weeks of us launching it, like had a lot of momentum. And inherently, it was like, also a very interesting idea and a very interesting concept. And it kept going, and people loved it. And, you know, we were sent out a push notification for people to like, come in and play for a game like randomly, and to see like 10s of 1000s of people come in, and like two seconds was crazy. And for a lot of people that would be like, Oh, this is super successful. Yeah. But for us, we're like, yeah, this works and people like it. But in two years from now, like, where are we going to be? Like, how many people can we give stuff to, you know, and so for us, we were like, this is cool. And it's fun. And a bunch of celebrities were even doing it. Like it was like a bit had like a cult following, like a pretty big cult following. But we were like, Okay, if you want this to be a really big business, like, take over the world type business, we're gonna have to adapt, and we're gonna have to figure out what works here. What do people like? And then, you know, streamline that into something new.
Darrell Etherington 31:14
So I mean, that's like, anytime that there's especially consumer apps, right? If you get traction early, especially pre marketing, or whatever, like, it seems so counterintuitive to say, Okay, let's move on to something else. Like, if you see positive traction, typically a founder of be like, no, like, let's double down on that we can take this into VC meetings, and we can go look at this, like, Don't you want to just pour fuel on this through capital? Like, how do you say, or how did you say, No, this isn't, this signal seems strong, but it's not the kind of strength that we're looking for.
Courtne Smith 31:44
I'd say we were very fortunate with the investors we ended up with, like, firstly, like, that's a whole, like my journey, fundraising as a whole, we're
Darrell Etherington 31:52
gonna talk about that.
Courtne Smith 31:54
Like a whole thing. But the people who ended up investing into us, they invested into us as founders, and the business and the product was second, they were just like, we like the way that you guys think we like how innovative you are, and the chances you take, you've clearly shown that you can put something together that people like, and we're willing to see what else you guys can do. So when we raised, you know, for surprise, we weren't just like, oh, give us money. So we can just keep doing the same thing. Like, our pitch was just like in our deck, even it was like showing all these other things we wanted to try, people really were just like, we're gonna give you money to try these new things, and usher in a new type of consumer product into the states and see what you guys can do. Because so far, we're impressed with how you guys things, we're gonna let you continue. So like those people took, you know, a chance on us. And hopefully, we've made them proud so far. But it was really them taking a bet on two founders who were relentless and being creative and innovative, and like really pushing the boundaries
Darrell Etherington 32:52
that is really lucky to have in terms of the investors and their trust in you. So I do want to hear about your your fundraising journey, for sure. And I think a fundraising is always hard, but like, it sounds like you've had some interesting experiences on it based on that comment there. So like, what was it like for you? Like, how did you go and get your first fund? And you know, how did you even go into those meetings and do the pitch and stuff like that? It's Yeah,
Courtne Smith 33:16
okay. So it's really funny, because I did this interview, like, not too long ago. And the journalist asked me, you know, oh, you're not from a tech background, like you're not from Tech at all. So you know, when you build a product, how did you let investors know that you have a product and that you needed money for it? And my response to her was just Well, I had a product that I built, and I called emailed investors who I googled and found online, and I wrote them, and I said, Hey, I have a product and I need money for it. And that's literally what I did. Yeah, that's really what I did. And that's honestly how I got into this whole, like, fundraising world. And that's how my journey started fundraising. To be honest, it was like, all from cold emails.
Darrell Etherington 33:57
That's amazing.
Jordan Crook 33:58
Very impressive. Yeah, I'd like to know what was actually in those emails, if it was just those two lines, or I have a product or if there was more there, and I also want to know who that journalist was, because there are tons of people who go into tech all the time, without a tech background and get funding because they know something that the rest of the tech world doesn't Well,
Darrell Etherington 34:19
yeah, and you think relationships would play like, especially like corny, like, give me your background? I would assume there would be like some warming shows or something to like, you know, like Drake is familiar with people who are investing money and stuff, right. But I also want to know what was in the emails like Jordan?
Jordan Crook 34:35
What was in those emails? Yeah,
Courtne Smith 34:38
I kept a very brief. And just because like, I know how valuable time is I don't like to waste people's time and like, I don't want people to waste my time. So like, I kept it like it would be awesome, even if I went back to see but I kept it like brief, very short, like a paragraph just like introducing who I was in a one liner, what their product was in a one liner like some key points. points about what was happening in the business. And I was just like, if you're interested, it'd be great to hear from you. And we can like continue the combo. Like that was I didn't like, go on to too many details or send a deck that nobody cares about that was going to be enough for you to either care or not care, right. And I sent it out to hundreds of people like and I had to go and search, like, what are consumer asked, or consumer investors and I had a spreadsheet of hundreds of people. And I reached out to every single one of them. And I say most of them most equals like 95% didn't get that. Or like had nothing to say or said no. But you know that percent of people who were interested, I mean, they're the ones who came out the gate early. And they backed us and helped us kind of move forward through our next fundraisers and stuff like that. So that's how it started. And I guess I hear a lot of people say, kind of, like, what you said is like, Oh, you've known these people should have been easy. Like, I did it the way that, you know, any average person can do and I was successful doing it, right. So that should give people some hope and direction and like not have people make excuses that like you can't do it, because that's really high raised it. And I made actually a conscious decision to not go to my network, because for me, it was like, if I build something that really has the potential to be great, and a product that people like, like, you should be willing to back the company without caring about my background in terms of like, who I know, or like, Who am affiliated with. And I really wanted to have people behind us who cared about the product itself, and really believe in us as founders, and we're just going to give us money as like a charity case, like, Oh, yeah, I know her because of whatever that was really, because it just meant that those people were along for the ride for the right reasons. And because they really wanted to see the business go somewhere, because they had real conviction in what we were doing. And that was way more important to me than just getting money from people who just like, know me, or feel like they should just give me money. So that's why we did it that way.
Jordan Crook 36:57
I think there's two important things there. The first one is less is more, right. Like, I think that that's something that gets lost on so many founders. And this is true, like with investors with pitching with pitch in the press with pitch decks, even like, the idea is to hook them, you're not to tell them everything. The more that that is there, the more flaws that they can find, like the more reasons they can come up with to be like nah, right. You know, I liked everything until I got to this one sentence. Yeah, you know, and that bothered me. So now. And the second thing, I mean, it's cool that that that kind of was acted as a filter system, your choice not to lean on your network for you. But I would bet that the people who did respond and eventually learned who you are, and who, you know, saw that as a huge integrity move, right? For sure. And that's important to so many investors to be like, oh, like, look at all the strings that this person could have pulled, and didn't, because they want to do it, you know, the fundamental way they're like, that makes me believe that when there are chances to cut corners or pull strings in the future, this founder of this bet that I made, does it the right way, because that's huge. I love I love both of those bits.
Courtne Smith 38:05
Yeah, and I mean, I pulled strings when I needed to, like when it made sense, you know, whether it was like for marketing purposes, but I felt like for the core of the business itself, I just really wanted people who were in the space and who really, really cared about what we were doing or like, even what our vision was like that was because at the end of the day, you have to be careful about people you take money from and like what they expect of you and stuff like that. And so that to us, and like to my co founder, like that just made the most amount of sense.
Darrell Etherington 38:32
Yeah, yeah, that's huge. I mean, it's it's similar in theory to like, how you early on, you don't want to spend too much money on marketing, because you want real organic signal, right? Like, you want to know that what you created is something that people organically actually want to use. And by the same token, you want to make sure that the people coming in are coming in for the core reasons, which is like, they respect you as a founder, they respect your ideas, as a business, right? For sure. I agree. So then what about like, how did they help you out after that? Like, what kind of like guidance and advice Did you just get from them? Because you also hear a lot about like, you know, value add investors and like, that's real popular now for people to say that they deliver kind of extra stuff on top of just like the money in the checks. But then you also hear on the other side, people are like, Well, sure, but are they like, they're not actually a lot of VCs think they're delivering value, but they're not delivering value, right? But like, what's your experience been like? Because you did mention they helped you out later on.
Courtne Smith 39:27
I definitely want to preface this by saying like, I was as green as it gets, when I got into tech, like you could not have found a more green person. And that's like, in many ways, like I had no idea like how the culture worked, or how the like I knew nothing. All I knew was that we had like self funded this product, and we put it out and figure that out on our own. And then now we were like, entering into this world that we had, like no idea about right and I like the biggest almost signal of how green I was there, like how naive I was, was the fact that I had no idea, by the way, the struggles that like black females had in tech and that that was even an issue.
Darrell Etherington 40:10
Like Really? Wow, okay. Wow,
Courtne Smith 40:12
no idea. I had no idea that there was like this lack of fun, like, No clue whatsoever. I really just like cold email people and like walked up into the place like hamster. Like, I thought I would just be treated the same as everyone else. Because like, why wouldn't I? Like I never even thought about it at all at all. And then wonder
Jordan Crook 40:31
if having that attitude, does that make a difference in the way you received? Like, oh, why would you treat me any differently? And then they're like, Yeah, totally.
Courtne Smith 40:41
From what I've heard, a lot of people think that my, like, ignorance helped me, because I wasn't kind of already going into it, like scared or doubting myself, because I really had no reason to think like, I'm lesser than, right. This felt like, Oh, I built this. And people like it the same way that other people build stuff. And people like it. So yeah, I treated the same. So yeah, it's possible that it worked to my benefit, because I had, I just really had no idea. And I would just take meetings with people and think like, like, you should pay attention. Like I was just not not bossy, but just like, this is what I've done. And either you like it or you don't, but I didn't let this like, Oh, I know that I'm black. I know that I'm a female. So you know, like, I know, it's not going to be the same. Like I guess it maybe did work to my advantage because I really had no idea. No idea. Which is really crazy when people hear that. Yeah. And I had like really also, like, weird experiences with people because of that, that I didn't know at the time, like, why was treated like weirdly, and you know, those people I met with who like I hope I never have to see again, ever,
Darrell Etherington 41:45
you can
Jordan Crook 41:48
share those
Courtne Smith 41:50
who would never do that. But it's just I guess it was really eye opening experience for me. Because my whole life, I never really faced that. Especially like being from Toronto, like, it's not something like, it's such a multicultural place. And everyone is like equal entries everyone equal. So it was like a very, very weird thing for me to go through. But like I said, I think also, when it comes to raising, it's a numbers game. So we knew we figured out early on, when we kind of saw it was happening, like we're gonna have to meet with as many people as possible. Because the more people you meet with is, you know, the higher your chances of finding the right fit, especially if you don't fit the mold of what people are used to or people are looking for. So we would take like 40, sometimes 50 meetings a week, which is like insane, wow. Our days would be like, packed like, we're in LA. So like, we fly from like LA to SF and back and forth, and back and forth. It was insane. But I honestly don't regret it. Because we got to meet a lot of people who now I know, like are horrible fits, like I said, would not want to meet with them again, people who were like incredible, but at the time, we weren't a good fit for them. But they gave us incredible advice that we still like live to buy this day. And that we met the investors that we have who were just like, off the bat perfect and like fundraising and we always say is like dating, like you kind of know when it's like not a good fit when it's a great fit when they're your soulmate. And we were lucky to find a few soulmates pretty early on who I'm really happy to have with us.
Jordan Crook 43:17
We talk about that all the time VC founder marriages. Yeah,
Darrell Etherington 43:21
yeah, yeah. And it's funny because we have we have the extra crunch live series that we also do on the show. And like that will be an investor and a founder pair. And they're like they you can see it, you can see it in the way that they interact with one others like,
Jordan Crook 43:36
yeah, here's flirtatious. Yeah. Like, you're like, What's going on there? Like you have big muscles now? Why are you guys talking about the site? You know, they just love each other. They do. Like, it's, there's something special about that I wanted, you said, there's advice that you were given that you live to by this day, what's the best or most useful piece of advice that you've been given in your entrepreneurial journey,
Courtne Smith 43:59
I say something that I find it useful is people made it kind of clear to us that it's okay, if you're doing something and you need to, like pivot to do something else. Because like, as a founder, you come up with an idea, you think is the best idea in the world. You think that everyone's supposed to like it, and they will like it because by one phase your idea? Yeah. But, you know, most of the time, in most cases, that's not the truth. And even if you look at a lot of big products that are out there now, like, you know, giant platforms that we all know and love now, like they've had to pivot over time and change early on to find that right fit and to maximize, you know, their offering. And when we were meeting with a lot of people, a lot of them were like, We love what you guys are doing, but like don't be afraid to like try different things. And I think that was kind of a helpful nudge, because we already had that kind of mentality. But it was nice to hear from investors that they were willing to see us try different things and not get too stuck in our ways and to innovate. And I said that was a really big piece of advice that we still lived To this day, because we iterate all the time, and we're always open to feedback, we're not married to our own ideas, because they're our own ideas. Because I think once you put your ego in the way is when you can walk into like, big problems. Yeah. So yeah, so I would say like, that was really helpful. And that was from people who did invest in people who didn't. Yeah, that was really helpful advice.
Darrell Etherington 45:20
I've heard even of the extreme case, where like, people go into meetings with investors early and the investors would be like, Oh, yeah, I mean, well, don't worry so much about that, like that, that's probably gonna change later. Like, they'll just upfront about, like, your ideas or whatever. But I like you, right, as the animal like, I'm investing in you as a founder, and you should consider everything else sort of like flexible, malleable. And I think like, that's, that's great advice for people to follow. And it's also because the thing like that you've been talking about a lot, and that I think a lot of founders can lose track of they're extremely focused on their idea, is what you wanted to get out of it was the impact, right? Like, you want to have an impact on the lives of like millions of people, right? So like, the way to do that might change, but the impact is going to remain if you're smart about it. So that's the thing that you should like, sort of stick to, as opposed to like this specific, like, Oh, no, this idea is genius, or whatever.
Jordan Crook 46:21
Yeah, like the North Star being the goal. You know, like, my goal is to change millions of lives, like how we get there. You know, anyone's guess.
Courtne Smith 46:29
Yeah, and also say that, like fundraising, like from what I've learned, it's such a great experience and like, exercise almost as self growth. I know a lot of people hate the process, because obviously, it can become exhausting, stressful. And even if your company's doing well, like you don't know what the unknown is, and that's something to always be afraid of. But like, when I think back to when we first started pitching, like, I cringe, like I cringe, so hard, like, the way I used to be or the way I used to talk or what I would say, or how, like how I would even talk about our business. And I'm just such a way different person now than I was when I started fundraising years ago. And I've learned so much from every single experience, like the good and the bad. And it's made me so much more confident, as a person overall, as an entrepreneur. But most importantly, I have like a really good understanding now of that whole landscape and what people are looking for, and also how to deliver my ideas in a concise way. And in a way that's effective. And that helps you in life, like across many different things, not just fundraising. So I say like, I've learned a lot through all those processes. And I've also learned to spot when you know, people aren't a good fit, right. And when it's kind of like bad news, and you should like go the other way. And I'm sure you guys have heard this a lot. But not all money is the same at all. And you have to be like very aware and do your research as to like who you're taking money from. And we are getting into bed width, because like those people are going to be with you for as long as you read this company. And you want to make sure that everyone is aligned with like you and your goals and your vision and have everyone on the same page, because like the worst thing you can do is bring in the wrong fit. And just like completely ruined your business, especially at such an early stage. So that's like another thing people should look out for. But I'm sure most people know that and do that already. But it is a big thing to be wary of.
Darrell Etherington 48:28
It never hurts to repeat it. Because it really is like, you know that we do hear it a lot. And most of the time we hear from people who have learned that lesson the hard way. So it's much better if you don't learn it the hard way. And if you learn it from people who have had the experience already, right.
Courtne Smith 48:43
Yeah, that's only because we've met with so many people. And I think most people have learned the hard way because they probably just went with people quickly. But because we did meet with like 40 to 50 people a week, we became very aware of who's out there. And we were like, Oh gosh, like thank God, we didn't do that. Or thank God we didn't you know, go with those people. But that's only because again, for us it was a numbers game. So we met so many people and we knew kind of the good and the bad and the ugly. So yeah, it's something to keep in mind as founders listening on fundraising.
Darrell Etherington 49:14
All right, I think we're about a time actually currently, but I'm, I mean, this is great. And I'm gonna make sure that I go on the new news so that people can decide my life and maybe here's what I should me and Jordan should go on there and have people make risky choices for us since we've played it so safe. so far.
Jordan Crook 49:33
I have so much anxiety right now, but I think I think we should do.
Courtne Smith 49:37
I don't want to force anyone to do anything.
Jordan Crook 49:40
She says and then she buys all of our voting slots.
Unknown Speaker 49:45
The other direction Yeah, and she
Darrell Etherington 49:48
quit TechCrunch is like the first thing she does like I have 90% share
Jordan Crook 49:52
company.
Darrell Etherington 49:59
Alright, so That was Courtney's story and that was the new new. So Jordan, did you sign up yet or
Jordan Crook 50:05
have not signed up? I'm actually busy collating all my research from this latest episode, and to very scientific spreadsheet.
Darrell Etherington 50:12
Nice, nice way to call that back from the intro. Thank you about the research angle. But seriously, I think that this is one of those things where it sounds like it's a hornet's nest. And we talked about it with Courtney. Right. And she does seem to be aware of the potential dangers with a platform like this, but it's also one of those things where I hear about it, and I go, am I super old and out of touch now or what's going on in the world, right, so
Jordan Crook 50:39
I felt that way too.
Darrell Etherington 50:41
But I feel like it totally could be a thing. And it could be like something that blows up big or it could be an element of something in future that blows up big and Courtney does seem to be somebody who's very willing to adjust her game plan and the game plan of the company based on what they learn
Jordan Crook 50:56
for better or worse, if what you're working on makes people wonder and linger on it a little bit. Either they're excited or fearful or whatever they might be. That's like a pretty good sign, right?
Darrell Etherington 51:05
Yeah, for sure. All right, so we are back next week of course. And please go ahead and rate us give us a good good good five stars five stars. Give us I always forget how many stars
Jordan Crook 51:18
I don't know it's the weirdest thing that's like the third time that you don't know how many stars there are in a rating system. It's always fine bro. Like what I know
Darrell Etherington 51:26
it is not a bit I just genuinely at the moment can't remember how would you start? Anyways, give us all the the max available. leave us a review. If you leave us a review. We might read it on a future show. So like leave us a review and then in the middle put like also check out our web page or whatever and then that'll get in there. It's like a free sponsorship.
Jordan Crook 51:50
And we'd like real sponsorships eventually to if anyone out there is listening.
Darrell Etherington 51:55
Found is hosted by myself TechCrunch news editor Darrell Etherington and TechCrunch managing editor Jordan crook we are produced by your shot Kulkarni and edited by grace Mendenhall. techcrunch's audio products are managed by Henry pick event. Our guest this week was Courtney Smith, co founder and CEO of new new you can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and on twitter@twitter.com slash bound. You can also email us and found a techcrunch.com we love your emails, please send those along. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.